Military atheists want new rules on prayer

OK, in that case, once you pick your religion, you can never change.  That goes for civilians as well.  No converting to Christianity, if you've never been one.  You are not permitted to convert to another religion for purposes of marriage, either. 

That's just silly, Dr. Know.  Most jobs can't treat people differently based on their religious preferences, why should the service be any different?

It is a statement that in dire circumstances many reach out to a higher power that they denied before.

And many don't... Pat Tillman springs to mind. And I can assure you that during the first gulf war, all the atheist's I knew (myself included), were still atheist's during and after Scud Missile attacks. Fear of death doesn't necessarily equate to a new found faith in mythical beings....

If they get the new rules I think they should also be prevented from changing their minds in the foxholes!!!

That's such a mind bogglingly  asinine comment that I don't even know where to begin... for starters, what's your thoughts on actually enforcing this idiocy?

And I can assure you that during the first gulf war, all the atheist's I knew (myself included), were still atheist's during and after Scud Missile attacks.

The only thing you reach out for after a scud missle attack is a clean pair of underwear. 

Well, there were a few squeakers (pun intended), but my skivvies came thru intact... ;)

I have heard the sound of bullets whizzing overhead. I have been the first to a buddy freshly shot.

In the first instance, I did not think about God. I thought about which direction the bullet was coming from.

In the second instance, I did not think about God. I thought about how I could stop the bleeding and get him to medical care.

During a scud attack I would not be praying to God for a foxhole, I would be digging as fast as I could, but that is just me.

My remark about changing religion was made in jest. People change their minds all the time.

Yes, I think that might be true- one time I got really sick with a high fever and later my boyfriend told me I kept calling "Mommy!"

pj,

As long as you remember that what an Atheist is fighting for is me,  as well as his own principles! 

Do not allow yourself to become a terrorist of words yourself.  I can sense your anger but remember, we of faith, are not all terrorists.  

Your comment of "what does religion have to do with national duty" is a statement lacking of understanding.  You can not deny anyone their reason to serve.  I am saddened by those in the military who feel it their duty to suggest those without religious belief are any less a patriot than those who believe.  As I said before, Atheists fight for my right to attend the Church of my choice.  Would you agree with that?

When a soldier/sailor/airman/Marine is dying, the reactions are all over the map..some tell jokes...some cry...some call to their God of choice, some call for their mother/wife/husband, some try to offer prophecies as parting words, and some utter obsceneties.  It doesn't matter. In the end, it's the same pair of boots, with an upside down rifle and a pair of dogtags.  
 

jsbach,

 I can sense your anger but remember, we of faith, are not all terrorists.   

Not angry at all. Weird how words work that way sometimes when there is not inflection behind them, eh?

What I am, is all about tolerance, js. What I'm against are the people who are so convinced that their way is the only way, they actually think they have the right or the "calling" to enforce their beliefs on others. Heck, I don't care if the guys defending me and our way of life cry out to a God or a mom or whomever or whatever, in the end it just doesn't matter - as Sgt C USMC pointed out.

What matters is that these guys put their lives on the line - and, IMO, no one should question how or where they get the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing.

Yeah, "pagan-on-pagan" crime has been a real problem over the centuries. But if people would stop clinging to the vestiges of archaic religion and step into the light -- you know, pursue wisdom and knowledge at one of the world's great universities -- Oxford, Cambridge, the Sorbonne -- those places which sprung full-formed out of the ground, birthed by the warming rays of the sun...

Dylan, for someone who wants atheist not to be persecuted, you seem to have no hesitation whatsoever about slandering theists. 

There's not a single slanderous statement in what Dylan wrote, towards theists or anyone else.

religion is and always has been a pernicious force in the human world

Persecuting atheists (the sane)  i

So religion is a pernicious force and its practitioners are insane.  Not slanderous?  I can point to a few examples of religion being a force for good, meaning that "and always has been" is a false statement, making it slanderous.  The statement was not "on balance it has done more harm than good" which could be justified, it was an extreme statement that is has always been a hurtful force, which cannot be justified.

I agree with Rachel. Dylan's statements weren't slanderous -- just cliched.

Opinions aren't slanderous. Even if they're ridiculous.

Really?

So if I say that it's my opinion that IBM bribed a judge to throw a case its way, that wouldn't be slander?  Of course it would. 

It may be arguable that 'religion' is too diffuse a thing to slander, but that's the only grounds I can see for arguing that it isn't slander.

Atheists are a psychologically oppressed minority. I agree with pjwrites that pushing religion is pure terrorism. religion is and always has been a pernicious force in the human world and many a good pagan has been murdered by those that advocate their own brand of religion.

I agree with you 100% Dylan.  Not to mention that 99% of all wars that have been waged are based on differing religious beliefs.  I.E., my god is the true god.  To me, religion is a joke.  If you don't follow the rules of some space man in the sky he will smite you and you'll have to spend all eternity being punished after you're dead.  Give me a break.  Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anyone to agree with me, nor do I think less of people who practice their religion.  If you need to believe in a fairytale to help you get through the day then that is your right.  Personally though, I'll continue to make my judgements based on facts and science. 

But, to stay on point, I think it's rediculous that non-believers would be criticized and\or passed over in our military because they don't drink the kool-aid.  The best part of this country is that we are all free to believe what we want to.  Surely the government run volunteer military should be one of many examples of separation of church and state.  When we mix politics and religion, everyone loses. (Just ask the Rebuplican party)

Brian,

In order for an oral statement to be considered slanderous, it has to damage the reputation or standing in the community of the subject of the statement (source).

Aside from the fact that religion is too diffuse to slander, the context of any statement labeled as slanderous is taken into account with respect to any defamation suit.  If something is clearly an opinion, it can't damage someone's reputation and hence, cannot be called slander. 

Talking @!$%# is (usually) not slander.  Especially about something as diffuse as religous groups.   

I am a christian and I respect you for your choice.  There are a few of us out there... not all of us are the militant right wing hateful christians.  I feel my religion has been kidnapped by a cult.  They do not follow the basic beliefs of what Jesus taught but have focused more on man's agenda.

I believe it's true.  The two candidate for presidency, McCain and Obama had to meet with Rick Warren a Christian pastor and try to prove who was the most authentic Christian to be considered to run our country.  And I thought there was a separation of church and state?  What was all that about?  I think that whole show was crazy.

The two candidate for presidency, McCain and Obama had to meet with Rick Warren a Christian pastor and try to prove who was the most authentic Christian to be considered to run our country. 

This is an excellent point, JoMan.  And don't forget the uproar of those who believed that Obama was a *gasp* Muslim (and almost as amusing -- those who were horrifically offended that anyone would even call Obama a Muslim).   

The religious beliefs of the president should not be a factor, in my opinion.  Similarly, the religious beliefs of a servicemember should not affect how they are treated, what support they receive, etc.   

There was a big uproar when a Roman Catholic was elected President. There has never been a Jew elected President. Religion has always been a problem with politics.

There was a time that the only choices for a service person was Catholic, Protestant or Jew...

I wish all the pseudo-Christians would come out of the closet as ambivalent believers so the religious right would know the TRUE stats.

here, here!

Well said.

This is good to know.  Please be safe and know we think of you.

Sean 2769-

Didnt mean all individuals in this discussion, no disrespect toward you. Thank you for clarifying what the vast majority of soldiers share in common...

God Bless You

Sean:  good post, fair and objective.  Thanks for sharing your experience and for many of us, our thoughts and heart are with you and your comrades.

Mass Graves-

Christians----(which vary in many different aspects)---not all the exact same replica of one another---absolutely appreciate and value science....LMAO!!!You are way far gone and I have no idea how you found this site....Or how I found this site...where the hell did I browse in order to end up here?? This must be the IGNORANT FOR THE IGNORANT group.  HOLY HELL!!! Get Me Off This Short Bus!!!

Then get off the short bus Angie M angry - if your hiden secret religion is christianity I don't recognize it in your attitude here as anything my Jesus taught.

JoMan-

Now dont get your britches in an uproar....I am not angry by a very long shot...I am assertive and direct....thus give the indication of "anger".....also sarcasm is common in my communication and I respect some do not follow or appreciate same. I do not have any secret religion....no idea where that comes from....that Mars character guy attempted to give his botched opinion of what my comment was about and I had to put him in his place....thats all...no ill-intentions JoMan...and I assure you if the Jesus you know was here on earth, he would be ready to scream as well....

Best Regards-God Bless-

that Mars character guy attempted to give his botched opinion of what my comment was about

I don't see anything in Mass' comment directed towards any comment of yours, Angie.

Also, "short bus"? Please do not disrespect mentally or physically handicapped children in such a manner.

All religion should be taken out of the military. Beliefs are a private matter, and are of no concern to the State or It's military.

Keep God in your heart, head, and Church, where he belongs.

Atheists/Humanists '12

This comment by Mars313 is sad and clearly defines the ignorance of FAITH, what FAITH means and its value in general...An Atheist can share very spiritual views and passions which may actually comfort a fellow soldier or American in general....

This comment by Mars313 is sad and clearly defines the ignorance of FAITH, what FAITH means and its value in general...An Atheist can share very spiritual views and passions which may actually comfort a fellow soldier or American in general....

Sad? I'm sorry I made you sad. But with all of your rambling you never explained why you believe Church and State should be mixed together.

Ignorance of faith? Faith is ignorance. Faith is believing something is true just because you want it to be. I have faith. I have faith that it rains gold on Tuesdays. I have faith that Unicorns have built a settlement on Venus and are amassing an army to take over Mercury. I have faith that monkeys are just humans that have been punished by the giant Pen that created everything you see. I have faith that dreams are movies beamed into your brain my Michael Moore. I have faith that red is actually blue with a tinge of yellow. None of these things are true just because I can say them, so what makes your faith any less delusional? Ahhh that's right, faith does!

Get over yourself. Your religion is merely an opinion that you have, nobody else is obligated to respect your beliefs or share them. It is a personal matter, and none of my business or anyone else's. Stop trying to force your beliefs into our government and military. It's rude and it goes against the entire reason this country was founded.

HAAA!! LMAO again. Never said a WORD about my RELIGION.....Never proposed my RELIGION on anyone....I was not proposing state/church should co-exist.........I was stating a FACT because of the MANY soldiers I know...who have varying degrees of faith, religion, non religion, no faith, etc who find comfort in each others FAITH whatever the FAITH may be........I only know FACTS Mr Mars...and these facts are from troops serving in the US Military...Never said a person was OBLIGATED to respect nor believe my religion....(you dont even know my religion genius) I clearly stated to the woman who mentioned God "terrorist" how many of us(Americans) are more open minded and centered and disgusted at both radical left and radical right....But, you clearly have all the answers....

Angie, hate to throw this one back to you..but go to a boot camp graduation and see what the DI's do to the one poor kid who doesn't bow his head when the chaplain starts the prayer.  

Sgt C-

Please do not "hate" to throw anything back at me....I would not be a member of newsvine if I werent challenged constantly and learning insight. That is not a true statement you made.....when did this happen? Where? So you are serving in the US Military? Were serving? Just call yourself Sgt C? Just curious....As I expressed before, if a US soldier is treated disrespectfully because he does not believe a certain religion, the leaders/same rank/etc have no place in our military because clearly they are ironically punishing the very idea they are out there fighting for......

I know too many Air Force, Navy, Marines and Army servicemen/women and your comment is not legitimate unless it was a rare and WRONG act.....and was treated as such.....

Actually Angie, 

I am active duty Marine Corps.  And yes, this does happen. Often.  Ask any drill instructor. It's part of the briefing that recruits are given prior to graduation. "When the freakin chaplain comes on deck, and says 'let us pray' you WILL put your daggonned heads down..." I'm paraphrasing here, and actually TYPING DI speak isn't the easiest thing.  

I'm glad you choose to express your beliefs. However, they are simply that, and have no bearing on the reality of the situation. 

The reality of the situation here is that religion IS pushed on military members. Subtly, but the pressure is there. From using a chaplain as the only form of in house counselling (and only can a chaplain recommend you see a professional counselor, so you must obtain spiritual guidance before you can obtain psychiatric help). Every formal ceremony is started with a religious invocation.  And everyone is required to participate.  How you may ask? Simple, because the chaplain is an Navy Officer, and it is a direct order from an officer. And there's the fear of disclusion and retribution from your peers for being the one person not bowing their head.

 If you'd like to question my integrity on this issue, as you did on my actually being in the service, I can send you the video from the unit's 233rd Marine Corps Birthday Ball, where I and 200+ other Marines bowed our heads and were preached to by a chaplain. 

You are correct to say that no PARTICULAR religion is promoted above the other, however you are incorrect believing that religion is not pushed on individuals in the military.  

Look up the drill and ceremonies manual, and you will see in every formation you could imagine, there is an invocation by a chaplain.

Sgt C-

I did not question your integrity on this...amazing how people interpret communication via email, text, comments on newsvine...

You commented about the push for religion, but not any "specific" religion. Please give more insight....doesnt that give room for personal choice in how a soldier participates to some degree? Certainly if an American chooses the military, they realize the absolute need for as much uniformity as possible....correct??? No??? As to focus on the defense of our Nation??

Angie, 

As I said, there is no specific push on a particular religion, but if you're an atheist (as described in the article) , then ANY push on religion is discriminating against your own.

There is very little personal choice, if any in the military. Every aspect of your life is calculated, considered, and there are orders and regulations for everything.  Every 'choice' you might consider can be revoked by seniority. Even the ability to leave the military can be revoked (stop-loss). 

The last time we've truly DEFENDED OUR NATION was in the spanish-American war, where we were actually invaded by enemy ground forces. the early 1800's if my memory serves me right. Since then, the United States has either counter-attacked (WWII Asian front (and European Front if you count putting US tourists on a british tour boat and leaking that it had military cargo so the germans would sink it and give us an ability to join the allied forces), peacekeeping missions (Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia,  Yugoslavia, Kuwait) aided and abetted through training and or equipment (Bin Laden in 1986 in the Russian/Afghanistan war, Saddam Hussein in 1988 for the Iran/Iraq war) or invaded. (2002 Afghanistan, 2003 Iraq) I'm sure I missed a couple in there..

We take an oath to 'defend uphold and protect the constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.' and when we take that oath, we agree to be governed under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and as a result, many of our Constitutional Rights are circumvented. As would many of yours, if you were to travel onto government property. 

I'm getting way off topic here, but my point is..that there is not a lot of choice, and there is very little defending going on.  We (like all other military in the past) follow our orders. Be they to assault a building, or bow our heads in prayer. We do what we are told. 

Sgt C-

crap, i was typing all this information and lost info...damn laptop...

I do not need a manual since I have a family history of military service....above comments...what I am explaining is for a proactive approach...yes, our military is traditional and changes are imperative to a degree...please remember...we are the USA...it is ok to have traditions as every other country in the damn world has but ours seems to be the one the libs want to 100 percent change...anyway another subject...so, even though people who do not know me will tag me with "right wing" conservative christian....I do not believe in any victim stamp....I believe in a proactive plan of change in a way of respecting OUR country core foundation, BUT our military leaders respecting religious differences.

I do not need a manual since I have a family history of military service

so your family history trumps the current copies of the military orders and a servicemember's daily experiences as a senior NCO and makes you a subject matter expert? The military is constantly changing, and what is an order today could be rescinded tomorrow, so the majority of what you've been 'told' over the years could be completely irrelevant today.

Everything you've expressed is your personal opinion, and is either based off of conjecture, third-hand knowledge, or experience as a military spouse.  But there is nothing factual. Nothing based on evidence.  So we have here a case of "I believe it so it must be that way."

The topic of the article is saying that atheists want to be given the ability to choose their religion (or lack thereof) and address it accordingly. What factually can you offer to countermand what I've told you , which is that by forcing to recognize any religion in the military, they are in fact being denied the right to practice their own  religon. 

There are many traditions in the military, blood Pinning, Tacking on the Crow, 'getting your blood stripe' and many many others that have been ruled as discriminatory (it wasn't more than 50 years ago that blacks couldn't serve as anything other than cooks on ships, and women are still struggling for their equality in many aspects, especially when placed under the command of some of the Division SgtMaj's and Master Chiefs who have been in 30+ years and believe women are disposable objects that do not belong in 'their Marine Corps'.

It doesn't mean these are good, and many of them have been either done away with, or at least pushed back out of the public's eye.  The military is far more tolerant of family issues (as opposed to the 'if the corps wanted you to have a family they would've issued you one' mentality that was prevelant throughout not that long ago, and still rears it's head from time to time in the division coffers) and as a whole is moving towards a more politically-friendly stance (mainly because the press has forced itself in on something which was previously a sanctity from them, and the modern military cannot move without it being broadcast in HD on CSPAN) but we are not there yet, and will not be for a long time.  

You have your beliefs, and I respect that, but as I said, they're subjective.   

yes, there are traditions....some good and some bad...and as we have grown as a country, WE have actually learned believe it or not....

What utopia military are you hoping for? Of course its a constanct run, stop, run, stop, change, change change.....IT is called The USA Department of Defense. It has limited time for nonsense.....challenging of thier protocol because of a religion, etc. is needed but in due time....Let our DOD focus on the task at hand.

If the military has participated in all this "EVIL" why did you enlist? You are scary and not worth the time my energy has left. My best friend from High School is in Iraq right now on his 3rd tour. He will die before he demeaning our govt the way you libbys do....sleep peaceful. You are able to do so because of our troops. God Bless

You are scary and not worth the time my energy has left. My best friend from High School is in Iraq right now on his 3rd tour. He will die before he demeaning our govt the way you libbys do....sleep peaceful. You are able to do so because of our troops.

Whoa, Nelly! Or in this case, Angie. While Sgt. C and I exchanged some heated words on another thread, he is a friend of mine - and not just a Viner friend.

I know this man - I have known him for a very long time - and I don't appreciate you calling him "scary" when he's devoted almost 10 years of his life - and numerous combat tours - to the Marines. Sgt. C may be a liberal, and I am a conservative, but he is not demeaning anything. He is telling you straight-out fact, which you seem to have trouble digesting. When it comes to the Corps, Sgt. C doesn't BS around. He is telling you what is expected of every Marine when it comes to following orders, including being told to "bow your head when the Chaplain comes on deck".

I'm sorry that you seem to have trouble accepting what he says as factual because it doesn't mesh with your experiences or your beliefs. He has a point when he says that atheists (and probably to a degree, agnostics) are being discriminated against because they are forced to follow military tradition which is steeped, from what I read of his posts, in religious practices. He asks for no utopia. He is merely trying to make you understand what is reality vs. what you are calling truth.

My friend, Sgt. C, has only recently returned from yet another combat tour. If I counted correctly, he's been in Iraq about 4 times now, and Afghanistan at least once. He can correct my totals if he feels the need to do so. I hope your high school friend comes home safely. But do not demean Sgt. C's service to this country because his views to not match the views you choose to have despite his explanations to you. He has been far more patient with you than I would have been. His reasons for enlisting are his, and his alone. He will probably chastise me privately for divulging even this bit of information about him, but I will not stand by while you call him "scary" and act as if his service means nothing to this country.

YOU are able to sleep peacefully because of troops like your high school friend, my friend Sgt. C, and the thousands of others who serve over in those war zones right now. YOU are able to sleep peacefully because of the thousands who serve in non-combat zones here and abroad. YOU are able to sleep peacefully because of the thousands of men and women who served, even died, in wars fought before we were even a gleam in our parents' eyes.

I am thankful for the unselfish, dedicated service of Sgt. C, your high school friend, and the others who put on that uniform every day, do what they are told without question, and live in conditions that you and I would not tolerate for a day, let alone anywhere from 8 to 15 months.

Thanks, Sgt C. You are my hero, and you always will be.

That is not a true statement you made.....when did this happen? Where? So you are serving in the US Military? Were serving? Just call yourself Sgt C? Just curious...

Angie, who the hell are you to question this man's service just because he states a fact that you are ignorant of? You think that because you know some soldiers you are some kind of expert, genius? You think that because you go to bars and try to pick up young guys in uniform that you have some sort of soul-connection with the entire military? Please. Get over yourself. Are you in the military? No? Then stop acting like you know what happens.

I have lost people in 9/11, Iraq, and Afghanistan, does that mean I have made a sacrifice? no. Does that mean I have some sort of special expertise on military affairs? No. Does it make me more patriotic? No. And the same goes for you.

As for religion, it has no place at all in the military, no matter how brave these guys are. That has nothing to do with it. You can be brave, patriotic, strong, and a war hero, and you religion still doesn't mean @!$%# while you are in uniform.

HAAA!! LMAO again. Never said a WORD about my RELIGION..

You don't have to. I know your kind very well. You're nothing unique, trust me. It doesn't matter what religion you are, you're obviously ignorant

THANK YOU, Gemini!!! As his wife I wanted to so badly, but he fights his own battles well... lol.... On the same token, he has been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once and know the 'wars' and the Corps very well. He knows what is required of him and every other servicemember and he feels that the public is very misinformed as to what the military is about and what the military does. ... And he is right (as a former military PAO I have the background to say so ;-). So with that, he uses a lot of his free time to inform individuals and hopefully other people who read the Vine. I try not to get involved in some of the conversations, so sometimes the only thing I can say is, "honey, you aren't ever going to be able to combat the ignorance of the world." and he says, "I know" and keeps typing :)... and I now see why he keeps typing, as others have and will read what he writes, even to "those" people, and gain from it.

I can also say that he respects all men and women who serve this country and know how quickly their lives can be taken. He doesn't take any of it lightly. I'm a casualty case manager for the U.S. Navy (which means when an active duty servicemember dies I'm the first to know and I'm the one to send the guys to the door in uniform to tell their mother, father, wife, husband, brother, sister, etc.). He hears the stories and feels the pain for those families. While others may hope their friends and family come back safely, he knows the reality of them coming home in a casket.... and I check my personnel casualty reports everyday hoping I never see my husbands name.

Angie, from reading your posts, I can tell that you are not against the military in general or any of our Sailors, Soldiers, Airman, or Marines, but when you insult one based on his first hand experience, you insult them all.

My bad man. I was just slipping in my two cents since I didn't contribute yesterday. I'll calm down. Once again, my apologies.

I can fully testify to the extreme of the bootcamp scenario. To that extreme I have experienced senior officers make decisions based on their faith with little to no regard for actual military procedure or rules.

5 years as an Active duty Sailor - and Agnostic to boot.

Religion should be kept out of the military at all cost. I know very few Athiest/Agnostic people that push their beliefs on any other devout religious service member. However, I've had many people in higher ranks than me push their beliefs on me. It's out of respect that I don't debunk or get into a debate with them.

Iarnu-what thin ice am I skating on? what is the point of discussing our thoughts if you are told to keep quiet....i understand name calling...and yes I was emotional about my thoughts last night. Apologies.....

Tara C-

you can tell I am not against the military "in general"......you did not read my posts clearly then because I am 100 percent for the military and our leaders and I am bashed daily for it......I grew up military and the expectations for loyalty were instilled very young and are still deep within me....The particular SGT you are speaking of....I apologized to HIM.....you say you read my posts....what he says is disturbing, I can have an opinion...I concluded in thanking him for serving our country. As every American who has passionate views, I am not perfect and I have very little tolerance for bashing the USA.....its all I hear, day and night,....I live in California so you might appreciate how frustrating it becomes.....

Angie -

Hi! I can understand your frustration (if that's the right term) and your passion. I, too, was surprised at some of the examples that my friend gave, for I had no idea. My father was already out of the Navy by the time I was born, and while both of my parents instilled a deep sense of patriotism in me (my mother was the second of her family to be born in this country), I only heard stories of how my dad and his brother would get into rather humorous scrapes during their time in the Navy and Army, respectively.

Still, I can understand what Sgt. C points out, and I think the point he was trying to drive home was that when you are in the military, you do what you are told. Period. No discussion. No special dispensations or requests. Such indoctrination starts in any service branch's boot camp, and probably the most profound start is getting one's head shaved. I've had cousins tell me that they expected to get yelled at by drill instructors when they arrived, that they expected to be ridiculed, but nothing hit home until their heads were shaved. They described that experience as a loss off individuality. Those lessons of doing what they were told continued throughout boot camp, as I'm sure you're aware. If that one bad apple in your fight (my cousins were Air Force) kept getting your whole flight in trouble, peer pressure - and probably not in politically correct forms - was applied to that bad apple. Lesson: Conform and stay out of trouble. Follow orders without question.

Do what you are told. Without question.

You are probably already aware of all of what I've just said; however, that are the points that I took out of Sgt. C's posts. Yes, some of the examples are disturbing, but when the crap hits the fan in battle, neither his wife nor I want him having folks who want to discuss what they don't like about a mission before following orders on either side of him - or in his squad, for that matter. I think we'd prefer him to have Marines around him who followed orders without question or hesitation.

I can understand the points made about discrimination; however, I can also understand Sgt. C's explanations about following orders and how such things might be drilled into new recruits in boot camp.

I am 100 percent for the military and our leaders and I am bashed daily for it

i'd wager that you're bashed for supporting our leaders' policies, and hardly ever bashed for supporting our troops. Don't confuse the two.

The particular SGT you are speaking of....I apologized to HIM

Actually, you said a completely targetless "Apologies....." in a comment that names only iarnuocon.

what he says is disturbing, I can have an opinion

And "he" (whoever that is) never said you couldn't. It's unvbelievable how many of the pompousy self-righteous confuse disagreement with censorship.

I am not perfect and I have very little tolerance for bashing the USA

And no one here has bashed the USA. Don't confuse blind fielty with patriotism.

I suspect that part of the variation in experiences that people on here have had is based on local climate, along with variations between the services. I suspect that the Army, as the biggest service, is probably the most tolerant, because it's had to be. I do know that they just corrected a serious inequity at basic training when they ruled that those who choose not to attend services cannot be told to begin Sunday clean-up before the rest of the unit (with the exception of people attending special services at different times) returns.

Jack and Gemini, Great point - thank you!

Angie,

I would still like to see the apology that you said you gave. Please site the post number. 

Also, he NEVER once, NEVER has and NEVER would bash the USA. 

No one EVER said you weren't entitled to your opinion... we've all been listening, but we disagree... and yes, when you start calling our troops "scary" people are going to get upset as there are a lot of very patriotic people in this country. Just to clarify, I am not saying that you are not patriotic, I'm just saying that your choice of words offended people because of THEIR patriotism.

I have to disagree with you on CA (again you are entitled to your opinion, but this is mine). I have lived in CA the majority of my life and while I disagree with some of the policies of the military I agree with a lot of them and am never bashed for it. There are a lot of people, especially here in CA, that don't like the 'war' that's going on over in Iraq, but most of them still support our military. There is one organization that I know of that is against our military and that organization is Westboro Baptist Church. They're an organization out of Kansas and they protest at military funerals and such. It is really a sad thing and very disturbing that they call themselves a church. This organization though is obviously the minority and I only have activity like this at one of our funerals a couple times a year... but I find that the majority of CA (as any other state) supports the military "in general" - most people know not to blame the military, but to blame the feds if they dislike what the military is ordered to do in other countries...

I'm glad that you support the military 100%, but I THINK that if you're going to put that much support into something you should educate yourself as much as possible on what's going on. That's what Sgt C was trying to do - as he realized that you were misinformed. Like it or not, the things he said are just the way things are in his personal experience and many other servicemembers (mine alike).  

While at boot camp the only break we had during the week was if we choose to go to church on Sundays, if you did not go to church you were left to clean the building. At all military ceremonies a chaplain says a prayer and you are all told to bow your heads. If you have any personal problem that your command finds out about the first thing they tell you to do is to go talk to the chaplain. When you get promoted, your friend (yes FRIENDS) punch you in the arm where your new rank is as 'good luck and congrats' or they push the pins of your new rank on your collar into your chest as 'good luck and congrats' etc...  I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way it is... If there is something that is said that you do not understand or disagree with ask about it, say you disagree with it, but PLEASE don't call my husband or any other military member scary.

Tara -

Thanks for your post! I think I could tolerate the arm punching, but I did have to wince at the thought of rank pins getting stuck into one's chest. I can stand having my ears pierced a total of 17 times (3 per lobe, the rest are various cartilege piercings) and a couple of tattoos, but YIKES! I've stabbed myself with various certification pins I wear on my work badge and no thanks....I'll take the arm punch, if I may choose, please and thank you. *laughs*

~note to self: No typing posts 1 hour after a shot of Nyquil (wincing at my grammar and spelling errors) and get "tact and diplomacy" lessons from the former PAO~

;-)

lol... yeah, I prefer the punch too! While it doesn't feel good, it's a tradition and you're proud of your bruise for weeks to follow :-)

Iarnuocon:  In the above spirit, I wish to express a mea culpa on my opinion regarding my comment about any other service member deserving to lose his life if he expresses disagreement with another service member's belief in God or lack thereof.  As usual, I was speaking quite spiritedly, since my husband is an atheist, and I don't hold that against him.

However, any service member who expects his compatriot as an atheist to save his rear end ought to be respectful enough to respect his choice to believe in nothing, if that's what he chooses to.

Thanks to all.

Iarnuocon:  And I would not have blamed you one bit...  honestly!  It was only after when I thought:  "well, that was thoughtless, wasn't it?"

So, thank you for accepting my apology.  But really, I wouldn't have blamed you one bit.  :)

Angie -- Your coments aren't being silenced because you're conservative.  They're being silenced because of your agressive means of presentation.  You called a servicemember "scary," because his view differed from yours.  You made an offensive references by stating that a commenter rode "the short bus." 

In fact, there's nothing in your comments that would identify you as conservative, only hostile.

Iarnuocon,

I apologize for my comment last night. That was at the very least well off topic, if not out out of line.   I responded emotionally, and that's always a bad state of mind to converse in .  I should've read the comment, and taken some time to cool off before posting my response.

Sgt:  I, too, committed that sin of writing before thinking--rest assured, I know how you feel, and I accept your act of contrition.  I've been there--I know how badly crow tastes--but once you get it down, you feel better.  :)

Cheers!

I warned Mars, Mars apologized, I'm fine with that.

I also shut my damn mouth. Take notes, Angie.

Mars, as a Christian, I totally agree with you.

We teach our troops to be killers, which is their main job of course....but inject GOD into it? No, the MILITARY should not inject any GOD, but let each soldier be free to have the FAITH they desire.

Grammie- As being a Military Officer for over 15 years, we do not teach out troops to be killers. We train them to be United States Soldiers. We are the ones that defend people like you so you can make comments like that. I happen to be a Christian and in the Military. Please refrain from saying a Soldier is a killer. Thank You

God Bless America

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I am a wife of a Marine...THAT is EXACTLY what they are trained to do, sorry if it offends you. I don't have to refrain from my opinion or the truth as I experience it.

They have to be TRAINED TO KILL, without remorse or second thought. Everything esle comes natually in time

I think I understand why Kenny has a disagreement in the previous statement, and I can understand that some context should be given to the situation.  In saying that the US military is trained to kill, you can miss what they're actually trained to do.

The military is not a shoot first and ask questions later organization, and that is what contextually comes from the term "killer". 

A killer, by the dictionary (which has a terrible definition): one who kills.

By that yardstick we're all killers.  Not neccessarily of humans, but that's all semantics.

Okay, back on the context and conotation of the statement.  The US military is not in place to kill people.  The US military is in place to defend the constitution and the American people against all enemies foreign and domestic and the rest of that stuff.  So, has the military killed?  Sure, and it probably won't be the last time.  But what I think kenny has a problem with is that they aren't just killers, they're family men and women, they're someone's kid.  They're you or me.  Are some of them trained to kill?  Oh yeah, but I get trained to do CPR and that doesn't make me a doctor.

Kenny,

You are either being defensive or your here to recruit, in each case I can understand your need for political correctness. But in fact WE DO train our soldiers to kill....failure to do so is just training them to die.

I was trained to kill, and I trained Marines to kill. Every branch of the military does. It's part of basic training, and gets more intense the more specialized you are...example Seals, Rangers etc.....You know this. By the way I wasn't an officer, I worked for my pay.

Having said that, It isn't right for you to ask any American to refrain from their opinion, no matter how much you may not like it. YOU DID NOT fight to give them their right to free speech, OUR FOUNDING military did that centuries ago....

"We are the ones that defend people like you so you can make comments like that."

It is the Constitution that gives citizens the right to speak freely, not you or any soldier. You do not defend them so they can speak freely,  you defend the Consitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.....by killing them if so ordered or needed.

This arena is NOT the military and you aren't given your stripes, if that is true, to shut up posters on a free speech blog.

God bless America and OUR TROOPS, Semper FI

Coach- It seems like you are or have been in the Military. I did not like her comment, I took it as her saying all we are is Killers. You should understand that is not what we are. It is a given that if you are a soldier you most likely have been trained to kill. I never said we were not trained to kill. By you saying you worked for your pay i did as well. I have been an Officer for over 15 years. I was not an officer before i went to college. To touch on that, i do not think that anyone should be allowed to become an officer before experiencing the other end first.  On that i still work for my pay, very hard. I have volunteered to go fight in our current war three times. No not behind a desk either. In my comment about me saying we defend people like you so you can make comments like that. By us Defending the Constitution we are defending the American people. I would think that you would understand that. 

Grammie- I am sorry that you feel that the only thing your husband was trained to do is be a KILLER. I never said that you could not have an opinion. Thats whats good about this everyone can have an opinion. Yes we are trained to kill people. I do agree with you 100%. I did not agree with the way it sounded to me in the post i first commented on. It is obvious i took it the wrong way. I do apologize for that.  You should understand that your husbands only training was not just to kill people and thats it. You are correct in a manner of speaking that we ( soldiers ) are killers. I have done my share in my career. I do not look at myself as a killer. The way i took your comment was you were against the Military. Sorry i came from a funeral service the other day where Mr. Phelps and his followers were. Again i apologize that i took your comment the wrong way.

Kenny,

Thank you for being so gracious. I apologize for sounding so abrupt about teaching them to be killers [to kill]. I certainly am not against the military, my husband served in the USMC honorably, as most who serve I'm believe. We are BOTH proud of our troops, and ALL that they do. I was stating a fact of having about TEACH them to kill, and then toss GOD in the mix...irony was my point. Not that they are limited to one function.

God bless

Grammie, I agree with you on the irony of the God + Killing (soldiering, defending, spreading democracy, whatever it is to be called) = moral standpoint. I would think it to be in the military's best interest to encourage the keeping of religion personal. We wouldn't want someone making an overly moral decision in the heat of battle.... not in this country anyway.

Equally, I am exhausted from the demands/attempts to silence my values/beliefs/oaths

I don't see any attempts to silence anything coming from you, even your misinformation.

any group of Americans could be feeding these soldiers the information needed to cause this rift

Yeah, discrimination in the military must be due to an insidious outside conspiracy. That must be it.

I am exhausted with the "victim" stamp. So sick to death over it. 

This, coming from the kid with the "OMFG, they're trying to silence me!" persecution complex. You have fun with your hypocrisy.

Genius Jack Huang- This is a forum for comments.....Do you read/watch news? Yes...I am pushed more and more to silence my beliefs in order to have a giant melting pot.

I never said a conspiracy was causing these soldiers to come public...I questioned what could be the source or what could be their reasons....inquiring...that is all...

I never said "OMFG" and i will report you if you ever say that to me again.....you came into this discussion out of nowhere and you are telling me I have made comments that I have not made....you do your research of my "misinformation" and tell me where I said there was a conspiracy...or where I said anything you so ignorantly accused me of. I support our soldiers as well as their freedoms(yes this coming from a conservative republican who is christian) read my comments and you will find my support of these atheist soldiers and have simply made points of a hopeful resolution with such a traditional military. Lord forbid the ignorant Americans who value tradition might have reservations about all this demanded change....only EVERY other country in the world is allowed to honor and continue thier traditions not the USA...

Yes...I am pushed more and more to silence my beliefs in order to have a giant melting pot.

Disagreement is not censorship. No one is silencing you.

I never said a conspiracy was causing these soldiers to come public...I questioned what could be the source or what could be their reasons....inquiring...that is all...

Ah yes, you only speculated on some vague "group of Americans" who were "feeding" these soldiers information, implying that without this insidious outside influence, the problem wouldn't exist.

I support our soldiers as well as their freedoms

Apparently not the atheist ones.

you will find my support of these atheist soldiers and have simply made points of a hopeful resolution with such a traditional military.

Actually, you've repeatedly claimed that religiosu discrimination doesn't actually exist in the military, downplaying the oppression these atheist soldiers feel, blaming it all on "libs." Sure, you might spout empty platitudes about "supporting" soldiers' "freedoms," but when given a specific situation, you gleefully dismiss discrmination as some "lib" hoo-hah.

Lord forbid the ignorant Americans who value tradition might have reservations about all this demanded change

Lord forbid these ignorant Americans ever realize that America is not a theocracy.

You have got to be the mole put on this vine in order to keep the friction going.

Ah, so you do believe in an insidious conspiracy. What's a nice word for "liar"?

I said the atheist soldiers should be proactive and demand respect for their freedom

You might be saying that now, after a bit of insidious conspiratorial pressure, but I did "read what [you] commented on," specifically this juicy tidbit:

There are far more facts to this story than merely religious beliefs...any group of Americans could be feeding these soldiers the information needed to cause this rift...this could be an attempt to flee their duty

So, in terms of vague generalities, atheists soldiers should totally stand up for their freedoms, but something like this actually happens, we shouldn't believe a word they say. After all, they might just be wannabe deserters.

Way to support our troops, ma'am.

Thank you for your cogent and passionate debate.

Semper Fi

I'm honestly just guessing - you must be a right wing conservative christian because your tone fits to a T.   You call people's opinions drudge, that they don't present any merit to this discussion, and say their comments show ignorance.  You laugh at them and seem to mock their views.  (see: HAAA!! LMAO again)   If your views and attitudes are so much better than others I would think you would listen and present your case with strength they would have on merit alone.  You accuse of having your values/beliefs/oaths silenced or demanded to be silenced.  You say you don't support radical groups on either side attempting to force their beliefs/freedoms, yet you sound like a radical group of one - forcing your views demanding we don't share ours.  I find you very contradictory and very right wing christian.  Sorry if I'm wrong about the right wing christian thing, but you should look up the definition you might find a new group to belong to.

JoMan-

You are honestly just guessing...and I am honestly just telling....read my comments JoMan..never called any persons comments DRUDGE(I sarcastically advised them to continue READING the drudge reports)(you do realize drudge reports exist and the majority of Americans feed into the drudge?) I question a comment about God "terrorists" and this makes me a right wing christian?  Questioning the point a person is making does not mean you agree or disagree...it is simply a request of further reasonsings....

The Mars guy was commenting about Faith in general being ignorant.....How does a human justify that? Furthermore, unless we are walking the boots of a soldier, we cannot conceive what Faith IF any keeps them going......

The comments earlier were implying the combination of Faith/Military being the wrong approach and I know for a fact.....this is NOT true...It isnt because I "think" I know....It is because I have seen and heard from ACTUAL servicemen and women... 

JoMan-

When did I force anyone not to share their views????....every comment on this discussion is a view from different people...Yes Mr. Mars makes me laugh....so shoot me!

The comments earlier were implying the combination of Faith/Military being the wrong approach and I know for a fact.....this is NOT true...It isnt because I "think" I know....It is because I have seen and heard from ACTUAL servicemen and women...

Who died and made you the arbiter of the military? My constitution says that the military, being an extension of the US government, should neither sanction nor prevent religion observances.

You "know for a fact" that the combination of Faith and Military is a good thing? Really. Are you a servicemember? "I know people," is not a persuasive argument, and repeating your opinion over and over with "I know people" as your justification doesn't make anything a fact.

the majority of Americans feed into the drudge?

What are you talking about?

Good Lord Mars-You are NOT presenting any merit to this discussion-ITS about TROOPS fighting sick evil aggression

Ummmmmmmmm, read the title, genius. It's about TROOPS that are ATHEISTS wanting to not be forced to PRAY to a GOD who doesn't exist.

See the little groups of letters? We call those words. If you put those "words" together, they convey ideas, subjects, and many other things. Take in those words and think about them, and you'll understand what they mean.... we call that "comprehension" it's a Liberal idea, but it works. Try it.

Tara C:

You're welcome, and thanks for the correction. I'd lose touch with him for months at a time, and figured he was gone again. I also don't count well at 0400 without a calculator (and in this case, a calendar). Take good care of him. *smiles* He's a very special man.

GG

Rachel IMM-

Youre not getting it....nor are others, but thats why we try and explain...The atheist soldiers want their freedom from being forced to participate in a religion they do not believe in. ALL I said to the people who were involved in this discussion was SIMPLY(if you read my freaging comments) the troops DO rely on spiritual ideas/beliefs(whatever those might be!!!....What I was simply implying was the hopeful direction of acceptance of DIFFERENT beliefs/views....I never said anything about my religion or I know everything.....I know journalist who have been with the troops side by side, My husband was in the Army, My best friend from highschool is on his 3rd tour in Iraq right now....SO....NO I do not experience physically where they are at or exactly what goes on.....I do know what they share with ME....and I was simply sharing these insights with people who have nothing but negative ideas about change/our future as a country/etc.....

and I was simply sharing these insights with people who have nothing but negative ideas about change/our future as a country/etc.....

Wanting religious freedom (a tennant our fore-fathers tried to maintian by not mentioning GOD in any of our early documents) is not negative. It is a reality, and it is a right.

It is people like you that restore my faith in the christian people.  I'm glad you are out there.

Kenny 75069-if you have read the initial starting point of this discussion you would realize that is exactly what I have been TRYING to point out.....Read the initional report about the Atheist soldiers feeling/complaining of discrimination....And Imagine the length the liberals are/will go in order to further supress unity in our armed forces--which trickles down to the civilians who support them.....As I have stated.....this is a HUGE exaggeration and the libs are portraying this as the epitomy of religious right wing people who do not respect other religions.......

Well, you guys have handed me a big giant HOPELESS sense of unity I will have to keep positive about and hope for the opposite...

Iarn-----IF you read any of my comments....you would clearly understand this is EXACTLY what I have been saying......!!!!!!!!!   The soldiers who are uncomfortable being forced to practice a religion not of their free will HAVE to make the proactive approach TO change.......AND you are exactly correct....THE chain of command has to respect this....as every American soldier is exactly that.....An American soldier who should be valued for more than just a soldier.....

I would say, based on my experience you're in the majority. However, to say it's blown out of proportion is not IMO, a fair statement. If it happens once, it's too much.

I think what really needs to happen is that a course of disciplinary action taken against those that do push their religion on others...Especially, in the Military.

I could cite examples of where this has happened to myself and people I've served with, and it's a disgusting thing. It actually got to the point that some of my shipmates and I would go out of our way to avoid certain senior levels in our command based solely on wanting to avoid a religious confrontation with him.

 do not push my beliefs on anyone.

And I'll respond to this with a question as well. Have you ever had anyone push their beliefs on you?

Matt in NM-

You bet your ass I have had different religions pushed on ME! You dont think the Mormon and other groups have stopped ringing the doorbell on Saturday mornings? I have family members who are hard core religious and advise me almost daily that I am living of the world and Jesus doesnt want that......obviously I am nowhere near understanding thier thought process, but I love them and listen to them and hope for the best....BUT I am NOT offended.....

Matt in NM-

You bet your ass I have had different religions pushed on ME! You dont think the Mormon and other groups have stopped ringing the doorbell on Saturday mornings? I have family members who are hard core religious and advise me almost daily that I am living of the world and Jesus doesnt want that......obviously I am nowhere near understanding thier thought process, but I love them and listen to them and hope for the best....BUT I am NOT offended.....

My apologies, the question was directed at the person who started this vine. Of course, in your civilian life you've had other religions pushed on you. You're not in the military though.

My point is, and will remain, that when presented with an unavoidable situation in the military, there is no clear guidance for religion. I believe that there should be. In my civilian life, I've had other religions try to persuade my beliefs, but, there cannot and should not be any recourse for that. In the military, however, there should be a precedant set for avoiding religious matters while serving.

Well put Tom....and a very good question....we are to keep quite while giving freedom to those opposed.....Ironic double standard of epic proportions.

BINGO! very well said iarnuocon

"What you can't do, however, is have the state do those things for you, or use the power of the state to compel me to do so. There's a difference between a private individual doing something in the public square, and the government using the public square to promote religion at the behest of one segment of the public in preference over some other segment."

Thank you :-) Semper-fi

Tom,

Exactly my point through this whole long convoluted post. It was said that religion is not impressed upon the military members.  I just pointed out that there are ways in which it is. I didn't say one particular religion was favored over another, but to those who's religion (or lack thereof) doesn't believe in (for example) bowing their heads in prayer, they still must do it.  I never said it was an issue, I just pointed out it was a reality. 

Well said!

I'll leave the book burning to hysterical Christians who think reading a Harry Potter book means you're going to Hell.

Now that was the bane of my teenaged years.  So much hysteria about how heavy metal and Dungeons & Dragons made you into a Satanist. 

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

Oh, Christ!  I grew up with those horrible comics.  (I even used to hand them out.)  Now I'm having fundy flashbacks. 

Thankfully people can change.

Why not give the atheist everything they want? After all, this is America.  Lets throw all religion out of America! Who needs it anyway? Take the name GOD off of and out of everything. Burn all bibles, books, etc. that one would consider controversial. Let homo men suck di*ks if they want to, where they want to. But tell me, how will you take GOD out of the christians hearts? I know that will be next on the list! So how will it be accomplished? Inquiring minds want to know!

Drama! Who said that because I am secular that I don't want you to go to church or have your bible? I just don't want you to dictate my freedom. People who are religious don't understand how we feel. If you've ever been a minority, you understand oppression.

Annual training (350-1 requirements in the Army) includes Equal Opportunity awareness that includes respect and tolerance of the many beliefs, or lack of, that Soldiers may hold to.  Remember that the US military is representative of the macro society from which it derives its members.  We have that same small percentage of people who will commit crimes, take bribes, and push their religious beliefs on others.  I've been in the Army for the last 12 years, but I would assume you would find the same in the civilian world.  Chaplains, commanders, etc who have crossed the line concerning religion have been slapped down when their actions were noticed or reported.

As an officer, I would never permit a Soldier to feel uncomfortable in my command due to their religious belief or non-religious belief (I am not religious at all and have never been).  I disagree that there is an unwritten policy concerning religion.  I've had Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, and agnostic/atheists under me and there was never any issue concerning religion.

During my change of command ceremony (where I was transferring my command responsibilities to the next commander), I decided not to have the Chaplain to give an invocation.  My superiors didn't have any issue with this and neither did the Soldiers who I just commanded for 2 years (to include 1 year in Iraq).

In any organization that is similar in size to the Army, or the US military as a whole, there will always be a relatively small number of instances where an employee (Soldier) is treated unfairly or harassed due to their sex, ethnicity, nation of origin, or religious belief.  This is unfortunate, but I know for a fact that the military does have procedures and processes to address these acts and, I feel, does a pretty good job compared to the civilian world.  If I ever was treated in an unprofessional or unfair manner due to not being religious or not being a christian specifically, I feel that I could get the issue resolved, using the system currently in place, to my satisfaction.

I have to admit that I have had a problem with one soldier over their religious beliefs. That person chooses to use their faith as a way to avoid having to follow the rules, and it's bad for discipline. How can I ask one person to comply without asking the others? There ARE ways to incorporate most faith practices correctly into military service, but this person has not chosen to follow the rules. Other than that, I've had soldiers of many faiths serve with me and most of them have done so in a way that brings honor to them.

Sean,

As we all know..the problem exists in the grey area where laws and orders, and traditions meet.  All (servicemembers) know of these traditions, from officers to enlisted.  Almost all of them without exception are in violation of an order/maradmin/or the USCMJ directly.  Yet we've all observed them, or been a part of them. Generally from early on in our careers.  

Progressive thinking in the military will always be fought by the senior enlistment/officers with the 'that's how we did it when I was in that position' mentality.  

A good example, (albeit a little off-topic) is the former SgTMaj/USMC removing the stringent regulations from the junior enlisted in the barracks.  Field Days are now only when needed,  and even those aren't near as strict as they were.   Gone are the white gloves, the 15 minute/per room floor to ceiling sweeps, and even the military bedding is now no longer a requirement.  They can use whatever bedding they want.

You can imagine some of the 'old corps' had serious issues with these changes.

Also, don't take this the wrong way Sir, but a NCO's job is to make sure that you as an officer only know what you need to know. We take care of the fine details before they ever get to your level, so you can focus on the actual mission, not the trivialistic details that go into it.