Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
advertisement
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Religion
    • Travel
    • Environment
Visit iarnuocon's column >>

IARNUOCON

Think outside the box? First show me evidence of any thinking going on INSIDE the box.
Articles Posted: 290  Links Seeded: 1329
Member Since: 6/2006  Last Seen: 3/19/2010

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Newsvine Tools
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site
{"contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}

Creationism's Either/Or Fallacy

News Type: Event — Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:48 AM EST
science, evolution, creationism, intelligent-design, darwin, theology, gap, genesis, naturalism, answers-in-genesis, young-earth, institute-for-creation-research, old-earth, day-age, omphalos
By iarnuocon

A Small Factual Error

A Thorny Problem

So Much For the Theory That They Came From Schenectady

Why the T-Rex Has Such Famously Flat, Molar-Like Teeth

Where Rodin, Nemesis of Godzilla, Comes From

God Made Them Travel-Sized for Noah's Convenience!

Why We Can -- and Should! -- Blame Chihuahuas On God

The Crux of the Issue

Apparently God is an Average Student

Spot the Logical Inconsistency in This Picture

Now Look What You've Done

When At All Possible, Point Out the Evil of Nazis

advertisement

Creationists of varying stripes (including Intelligent Design Creationism) insist that evolution is "just a theory", and that equal time should be given to Creationism. The common strategy employed is a form of negative argumentation in which, if the certainties of evolutionary theory can be dethroned, creationism must be taken seriously as the only "reasonable" alternative.

It would be instructive to look at exactly what is meant by the term "creationism."

Young Earth Creationism

This is the classic position which most people call to mind when they hear the word "creationism." Young Earth Creationists (YECs) hold that the planet is roughly 6,000 to10,000 years old; that God created Heaven, Hell, and the Universe; that God further created the Earth in six 24-hour days; and that existing evidence in the natural world supports a strictly literal view of the Biblical creation story.

This puts YECs at odds with more than just evolutionary theory. If YEC were valid, everything we've come to know through science would have to be rewritten—physics, chemistry, geology, archaeology, biology, et cetera. YECs hold that the pre-eminence of their views as science is prevented by discrimination and censorship.

Some key issues of YEC are that the continents moved into their present positions as a result of the Noachian Flood, that dinosaurs roamed the earth with men, and that each creature was created "according to its kind."

The Young Earth view is promoted by a veritable army of activist groups such as the Institute for Creation Research, headquartered in Santee, California. ICR describes itself as engaging in a wide variety of "activities and ministries, all promoting the truths of scientific creationism and inerrant biblical authority in all fields of study and in all areas of life." It's catalog includes over a hundred and fifty titles, and its periodical publications "Acts and Facts" and "Days of Praise" are sent to hundreds of thousands of recipients on their mailing list.

Another such group is Answers in Genesis, headquartered in Florence, Kentucky, and founded by Ken Ham and Dr. Gary Parker. AIG holds seminars and publishes the Creation Technical Journal containing papers by "leading creation scientists", and Creation ex nihilo, a family oriented, full-color magazine. Then there are smaller and more recently formed creationist groups such as the Bible Science Association, the Creation Research Society, the Biblical Creation Society, and the Center for Scientific Creation, each with its own publications and staff.

The latter organization, the Center for Scientific Creation, is typical in, for instance, wanting to explain all major terrestrial features of the earth by reference to the Noachian flood. It's founder, Air Force colonel Dr. Walt Brown, wrote a book titled In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood. In it, he lays out his "hydroplate theory," which he claims explains how the continental plates move:

Perhaps the most perplexing question in the earth sciences today is barely verbalized in classrooms and textbooks: "What force moves plates over the globe and by what mechanism?" What is the energy source? The hydroplate theory gives a surprisingly simple answer. It involves gravity, the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and water—lots of it.

Aside from the fact that geologists would be astonished to hear that they are perplexed by this question, Brown's approach highlights the grand canyon that divides the approach of creationists from that of scientists. It also reveals a significant rift between creationists who, on one side, want to claim that continental drift shows the predictive ability of "Biblical science" (by referencing Genesis 10:25) and those on the other side who insist that creationists must reject continental drift, as it undermines recent chronology. As noted by creationists Wayne Frair and Percival Davis:

If the usual geological time scale is accepted, continental drift would have occurred at a rate of inches per year, which is reasonable. But if the much shorter chronology consistent with biblical relevation [sic] is accepted, the rate would have had to be many miles per year to produce the present location of the continents.

This sort of disagreement is common among creationists, and highlights the schisms which exist between the various groups.

Mature Earth Creationism

Also known as the Omphalos hypothesis, MECs hold that the Lord necessarily created life, the universe and everything much as science sees it, with the appearance of great age, 6,000 to 10,000 years ago, in six 24-hour days. This includes fossils of creatures that never actually lived, light from supernovae that never actually happened, and an Adam and Eve complete with belly buttons.

This does not necessarily put MECs at odds with science, as a difference which makes no difference is no difference. MEC is not claiming that it is a science. However, it does present a number of problems with regard to theology, including questions as to God's motivations, and the impact of deception on the notion of a benevolent God, as well as a negative philosophical impact on the possibility of knowledge. The latter is put best by the concept of Last Thursdayism, which holds that if God created the universe with the appearance of age, he could as easily have created it five minutes ago, or last Thursday. The assertion is unverifiable and unfalsifiable, as any empirical evidence to support the notion is rendered useless by the fact that it was created arbitrarily to look the way it does at every level of detail.

There is also a modified MEC position, which I won't give a separate heading to, which holds that the Universe was created 6-10,000 years ago in six 24-hour days, but that time itself was compressed at some point such that the development of everything we see could occur in within the allotted time. Naturally, it suffers from similar drawbacks.

As a result, MEC necessarily must be looked at as a theological or philosophical position, but is no challenge to the scientific position, since it suggests that God wants us to see exactly the evidence that science reveals..

Old Earth Creationism

This form of creationism subsumes a number of different positions, among them Gap Creationism, Progressive Creationism, and Day-Age Creationism, which are, even among themselves, somewhat exclusionary of the other positions. OEC accepts as valid that the Earth is billions of years old. It still generally adheres to a literalist interpretation of Genesis, although the degree of literality varies by "flavor" of OEC. Gap Creationism accepts the age of the earth, but contends the days of creation were intended as literal 24-hour days (with gaps between). It holds that the Noachian Flood is responsible for visible geological formations, and that individual species were independently and specially created by God. Day-Age Creationism is an attempt to reconcile Biblical accounts of the creation with modern day science, where the "days" of the creation are taken to be representative of "ages" during which much of the development of the world that is supported by scientific evidence occurred. DAC appears to support microevolution, but holds that God created the individual "kinds" of animals (perhaps the genera, i.e. "proto-species") and man. Progressive Creationism holds to the scientifically accepted age of the Universe and the Earth, denies a global Noachian Flood, and believes in a variation of evolution that allows for the special creation of man and the direct creation of proto-species which underwent subsequent microevolution, along with the direct creation of subsequent species as supported by the fossil remains of "new types" of organisms. It generally rejects "macroevolution" and descent from a common ancestor.

Here, also, are a variety of groups actively promoting "the" creationist view: Hugh Ross and the Reasons to Believe ministry, journalist Fred Heeren, the American Scientific Affiliation, et al. And the schisms among these groups does not abate. The Creation Research Society was founded by YECs who split from the ASA, believing that it had abandoned the doctrines upon which it had been founded—"to promote and encourage the study of the relationship between the facts of science and the Holy Scriptures." YECs Mark Van Bebber and Paul Taylor, who are directors of the young earth creationist company Films for Christ, wrote a book with a title identical to a Hugh Ross book-- Creation and Time-- in which they attack Ross's version of creationism point for point. They state that his old earth teachings

are leading people down a wrong and dangerous path—a trail trod by many in the past that has repeatedly led ultimately to even more serious theological problems and loss of faith in God's word.

If you can't trust the literal word of the Bible, what can you trust?

Intelligent Design Creationism

Intelligent Design Creationism is primarily a watered-down version of Progressive Creationism. Its proponents largely hold to accepted science as to the age of the Universe and the Earth, and even agree to some of the basics of evolutionary theory. However, IDC posits that the "designer" intervenes directly in evolution and that evidence of such interaction is available to us in the form of "specified irreducible complexity" which cannot be accounted for by modern evolutionary theory.

IDC is also split into variants. The majority of proponents, although eschewing to name the "designer" directly, hold that the "designer" is none other than the Christian God, and seek to provide a scientific basis for Christian faith (or the broadening of "science" to include theistic principles). Another significant group of proponents are the Raelians, who hold that the "designer" is comprised of a race of aliens who created human beings and life on earth for their own purposes. These two IDC groups do not see themselves as compatible.

Theistic Evolution

Theistic Evolution generally holds merely that God was the prime mover resulting in the Universe we see around us. By this view, man was created by God through the process of evolution. It sees the Biblical accounts of Genesis as allegorical and not in conflict with science. Some groups or individuals which are included under the Theistic Evolution umbrella, however, may reject key parts of accepted science, depending on their theology. In its most diluted form, Theistic Evolution would be synonymous with Deism.

Non-Christian Creationism

Although creationism is largely an American phenomenon, it should be noted that, if creationists have their way and insert supernaturalism into science, the number of potentially valid versions of creationism are not restricted by adherence to Christianity. If the supernaturalism and special revelation suffice as valid imprimatur for the forwarding of an "explanation" of the Universe, from soup to nuts, then all religions (past and present) or versions of spirituality (from aboriginal to fictitious original) are equally as valid. By that measure, the creationism of the Navajos, the Babylonians or the Scientologists are equally "scientific."

The Problem for Creationists—Too Many Creations

Roughly 47% of Americans believe that God created the Universe and man pretty much as we see them sometime within the last 10,000 years. A further 36% believe that evolution was guided by God. And while many of these people do not seek to confuse or conflate science and religion, it has to be considered that such beliefs underlie the idea that science and creationism should be given "equal time" in the science classroom.

But creationism is not a single conceptual species. It has distinguishable varieties which are at odds with each other, and which cannot or will not be reconciled with one another. From the point of view of the various creationist groups, holding to the proper theology, the "true" interpretation of Christianity, is essential; and even the sometimes minor differences in belief may be the points upon which hinge the difference between right and wrong, salvation and a slow slide into atheism. These theological commitments are the fuel upon which "creation science" runs. Even though each creationist group strives to present its "science" stripped of biblical references, these views are primarily motivated by a literalist reading of the book of Genesis.

An important point that should not be lost amongst all the differing views is the fact that even though these groups strive to present a reasonable face to the public by referring to "scientific" rationales for their beliefs, amongst themselves they quickly return to theological arguments. For creationists, empirical evidence must always pass theological muster. In this can be seen the true seeds of what they intend "theistic science" to flower into.

A key problem with the strategy of arguing against evolution is the essentially fallacious nature of the argument. It excludes any middle positions—indeed, it ignores the fact that the term "creationism" encompasses a variety of positions which are incompatible with each other. If Creationism isn't a singular position, negative argumentation against evolutionary theory cannot be adequate to force acceptance of Creationism as a "reasonable" position.

The truth is that although nearly all of these movements claim that the "truth" regarding how the universe came to be in the shape it is today can be discerned by a careful analysis of the revelations of Biblical accounts, there are wide rifts between and within the groups themselves. YECs do not agree with OECs do not agree with IDCs, and so on. This is problematic for an assertion that scripture can act as a substitute for science in expanding the body of human knowledge. Assuming (for the moment) that negative argumentation about evolution can be taken as positive support for creationism, and further assuming that any of these groups eventually managed to succeed to a degree that none currently have at disproving any key portion of modern evolutionary theory, the question then arises—which Creationism (if any) has the "disproof" of evolution proved?

Of course, relying solely on negative argumentation about current evolutionary theory says nothing about the truth of any of these versions of creationism. Such a supposition rests on the fallacy of a false dilemma. Either "evolution" is true, or "creationism" is true. Once it is revealed that "creationism" is no one position, it becomes apparent that the strategy of disproving evolution in order to "prove" creationism is doomed from the start.

At some point, "creation scientists" are going to either have to give up the idea of inserting the supernatural into the environs of scientific investigation, explain how reference to the supernatural can be included in the scientific enterprise without absolutely destroying the explanatory power of methodological naturalism, or provide positive arguments for concluding that creationism is a legitimate and investigable scientific hypothesis.

In the meantime, I won't hold my breath.

Photos are courtesy of John Scalzi. I highly recommend his Flickr tour of the Creation Museum in Florence, Kentucky. As Mr. Scalzi warns, however, No little amount of sacrilegiousness follows. If you are a creationist and/or otherwise determined to take the Bible literally, you will almost certainly be offended. Don't come whining to me when you are.

{"contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • iarnuocon's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: Atheism, Creation vs. Evolution, Liberal Atheists, Newsvine Science, rationalists, Skeptics
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (261)
{"commentId":1392778,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
iarnuocon

I particularly like the Flickr tour. All the nonsense with none of the "spending hard-earned money to support nonsense."

The Jurassic Era, Concurrent With the Fifth Dynasty of Ancient Egypt:

I have it on good authority that Djedkare Isesi, second to last pharaoh of the fifth dynasty, was actually *consumed* by a dinosaur! "But, John," I hear you say, "Everyone knows that the mummy of Djedkare Isesi was discovered at his pyramid tomb at Saqqara." Ah, you poor credulous fool! Don't you realize that's exactly what they WANT you to think? They *found* a mummy in the tomb, sure. But *whose* mummy? See. Follow the trail of clues, people. Follow the trail.

I can't talk about this any more. I may have said too much already. Forget we ever met.

{"commentId":1392778,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
  • 12 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:03 PM EST
{"commentId":1393416,"authorDomain":"ombra"}
ombra

Great article!!!

Lewis Black had a great line about creationists and dinosaurs and men living together..

"I mean, they watch Flintstones like it's a documentary!"

Life ain't a cartoon, you can't throw away everything we've learned to make it fit your beliefs. Not just evolutionary science, but geology, biology, physics, everything would have to be thrown out to make it fit. Might as well go back to living in the caves!

{"commentId":1393416,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"ombra"}
  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:01 PM EST
{"commentId":1394277,"authorDomain":"josh-of-arc"}
Josh of Arc

Ha! I am so glad someone was able to incorporate John Scalzi's pictures of the Creation Museum into an article(note).

Aside from your notes about the flavors of creationism, folks are encouraged to check out Scalzi's article about his trip to The Creation Museum, a trip that resulted from a challenge to raise $250 to get him there and into the museum and which resulted in a collection of over $5,000 (the balance of which was donated to Americans United for the Separation of Church and State).

His report, titled Your Creation Museum Report, is hilarious and a must-read, starting with:

Imagine, if you will, a load of horse@!$%#. And we're not talking just your average load of horse@!$%#; no, we're talking colossal load of horsehit. An epic load of horse@!$%#. The kind of load of horse@!$%# that has accreted over decades and has developed its own sort of ecosystem, from the flyblown chunks at the perimeter, down into the heated and decomposing center, generating explosive levels of methane as bacteria feast merrily on vintage, liquified crap. This is a Herculean load of horse@!$%#, friends, the likes of which has not been seen since the days of Augeas.

And you look at it and you say, "Wow, what a load of horse@!$%#."

-J

(note) A damn fine article, to boot. Kudos!

{"commentId":1394277,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"josh-of-arc"}
  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:23 PM EST
{"commentId":1399643,"authorDomain":"rutty"}
David Rutt

Scalzi's "horse@!$%#" article was published on Newsvine, if I remember correctly, which led me to his blog and these photos. I hadn't laughed so hard in ages, especially at the subsequent LOLCreashun thread.

Great article Iarn! Very informative and extremely well-written.

I'm pleased that the UK isn't so infested with such nonsense, although I recently found out that one of my workmates is a Muslim creationist. We still have them but they seem not to want to create "museums" aimed to spreading their illogical fairytales.

{"commentId":1399643,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rutty"}
  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:37 AM EST
{"commentId":1399851,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
iarnuocon

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're in trouble.

Currently, a group call the AH Trust, concerned over the primacy the Theory of Evolution holds over religious beliefs about life's origins and history, are actively seeking land on which to build a gigantic theme park promoting a literal interpretation of the Bible and making a multi-media case that God created the world in seven days. The $7 million theme park will feature two movie theaters, shops, a cafeteria and plans to apply for government grants and European funding to help it turn its television studio into 'an international leader in promoting family-oriented Christian programmes'. The park's business plan predicts nearly $9 million/year in profits (No "prophet" estimate was available at the time of writing).

You can divine the Discovery Institute's crooked fingers in the background of the Creationist movement in the UK.

{"commentId":1399851,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:36 AM EST
{"commentId":1399878,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
foolishgeorge

Can you think of a more appropriate venue -- a theme park? Call it La La Land! Imagine the way cool rides!

{"commentId":1399878,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
  • 2 votes
#1.5 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:48 AM EST
{"commentId":1400317,"authorDomain":"rutty"}
David Rutt

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Theme Park plans were all a big hoax?

Ah, some comments about this HERE if you scroll down. It's suitably in the "Science Fiction" category. They're certainly not going to be building anything with only £360 to be going on with ;)

{"commentId":1400317,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rutty"}
  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:55 AM EST
{"commentId":1400451,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
iarnuocon

Nice find, David! I think the worry is that the AH Trust will hook up with Sir Peter Vardy, who has donated millions to create a number of schools which teach creationism rather than evolutionary theory. His personal fortune is over $150 million, and his company does about $3 billion in revenues.

Keep an eye on the situation, and post an update if you see anything about the theme park moving forward. I'm really interested to see whether creationism gets a firmer toehold in Europe.

{"commentId":1400451,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
  • 3 votes
#1.7 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:29 AM EST
Reply
{"commentId":1392954,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
spiffie

Whew. Great article, and it really hammers away at exactly how much time would be wasted by trying to shoehorn this into a standard survey class in science. As I remember my high school science classes, we ran at full tilt to get through the all the sections in the textbook, and still didn't finish. Now if people want to support more and better philosophy classes in high schools, I'd be all for a unit on this kind of debate.

{"commentId":1392954,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:53 PM EST
{"commentId":1393059,"authorDomain":"extrascentsory"}
extrascentsory

The fact that this creationist nonsense is being given any consideration at all in the 21st century suggests to me that homo sapiens is a failed experiment. How stupid can people be? (Don't both to answer - it's a rhetorical question.)

{"commentId":1393059,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"extrascentsory"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:20 PM EST
{"commentId":1393074,"authorDomain":"jordang"}
JordanG

Fantastic article, great evidence, excellent writing... I'd vote ya up 50 times if I could!

{"commentId":1393074,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"jordang"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:25 PM EST
{"commentId":1393254,"authorDomain":"celestina"}
Celestina

Really, really well done, iarnuocon. It drives me nuts that so many people want to present creationism on par with evolution, but never consider how many other theories from how many religions must then be included, and that without recognizing how many variants of creationism there are! I had no idea, honestly, there were so many disparate factions. So thank you for what must have been a ton of research, and a very well written article.

{"commentId":1393254,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"celestina"}
  • 10 votes
Reply#5 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:14 PM EST
{"commentId":1393330,"authorDomain":"brianford"}
Brian Ford

Nicely done. I especially like that you provide explanation and thought with your links rather than, you know, a bunch of links to comments taken completely out of context as the basis for your entire argument.

{"commentId":1393330,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"brianford"}
  • 8 votes
Reply#6 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:39 PM EST
{"commentId":1393401,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
iarnuocon

Thanks!

{"commentId":1393401,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:57 PM EST
{"commentId":1393482,"authorDomain":"vincentgrayson"}
Vincent Grayson

Fantastic stuff, just the uplifting article I needed today.

{"commentId":1393482,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vincentgrayson"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#8 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:24 PM EST
{"commentId":1393733,"authorDomain":"sheep"}
evano

Very well written and explained! Your discussion of how, by allowing the various irreconcilable theories of the creationist groups to be taught would open the floodgates for every creation story to be given equal time is exactly the point Bobby Henderson was making in creating the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

His open letter to the Kansas School Board said:

...I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If any of the Creationism theories which posit a non-falsifiable entity interfering or directing the development of the planet as we know it are legitimate enough to be taught, then any creation story -- including the the FSM -- deserves equal time as well. (RAmen!)

{"commentId":1393733,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sheep"}
  • 8 votes
Reply#9 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:36 PM EST
{"commentId":1393883,"authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
AdipicAcid

Evan, the one I insist be included is the Egyptian creation story: it begins with Amun-Ra masturbating the first two lesser gods into existence, who incestuously marry and produce the next generation. The Egyptians were very open about this sort of stuff, in another fascinating factoid, we have yet to find a hieroglyph that stands for "virgin" until after their conquest by the Greeks. Apparently the concept was unimportant to them.

Try explaining that to the little Bible-thumpers!

{"commentId":1393883,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
  • 9 votes
#9.1 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:20 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":1394093,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
Brad Leclerc

Personally I enjoy the look on people's face's when I say "fine, ok. For the purpose of this conversation, let's assume evolution is wrong 100%. It's not even on the table, there is no reason to argue against it, no one believes it. Now explain to me why your view of creation (whatever it is in each case) is right, without using evolution as a counter-argument.....GO"

They tend to stammer a bit and think it over, and then either bring up the bible (which of course ends quickly, as it can't prove anything about creation for or against) or tries to convince me that it's an either/or question and that since evolution is false, that means they are right....to which I laugh, and generally they get annoyed and start over, or walk away. I have yet to even have someone make a real attempt, let alone have any success explaining even why THEY believe their position, so proving it is just out of the picture. It's hilarious.

{"commentId":1394093,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
  • 11 votes
Reply#10 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:24 PM EST
{"commentId":1394417,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
TJ Thompson

There were two creations. Before anything could be created in its physical form, it was created in its spiritual form, and thus is the solution to the problem! Moses's account skips over the physical creation. The theologians cannot reconcile scripture with science, but Latter-day Saint doctrine has no problem accepting the geology AND the scripture behind it all.

{"commentId":1394417,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#11 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:12 PM EST
{"commentId":1394512,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
spiffie

How is that a solution to the problem?

{"commentId":1394512,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
  • 4 votes
#11.1 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:41 PM EST
{"commentId":1394526,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
TJ Thompson

Because the six days applies to the spirit creation. The physical creation was chronicled by Abraham in his personal record, which Christianity has rejected, but he uses the word "time" instead of "day." The entire event chronicled is different, and there is no mention of days, so it is perfectly acceptable to say that it took millions of years to create the world and the record of Abraham coincides beautifully.

{"commentId":1394526,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
  • 1 vote
#11.2 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:46 PM EST
{"commentId":1394565,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
spiffie

I'm sure millions of Christians will be overjoyed to discover that the problem has been solved. But I suppose that doesn't help the non-Christians who still maintain their own creation stories, nor does it resolve the issue of whether a creation story (and which creation stories) should or could be taught in science class.

{"commentId":1394565,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
  • 5 votes
#11.3 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:59 PM EST
{"commentId":1394674,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
foolishgeorge

Moses's account skips over the physical creation.

"the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep;" sounds pretty physical to me. The next act is creating light, which of course brings with it electromagnetism and time itself. Sounds very physical.

Are not all creation stories based on the intervention of an external agent (call it supernatural, Creator, Designer, FSM or whatever you like)? Let's operate on the premise that science prefers to solve problems by established process, avoiding external actors, whenever possible. It is therefore straightforward to conclude that no creation story of any flavor belongs in a science class.

{"commentId":1394674,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
  • 2 votes
#11.4 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:33 PM EST
{"commentId":1395122,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
TJ Thompson

Millions of Christians should be overjoyed, but they probably won't be, because they will never admit that when Mormonism can answer all their perplexing conundrums there just might be truth that they don't know about.

Of course, science classes shouldn't discuss things other than science, but just like we don't teach crackpot historical interpretations in history class or the flat-earth theory in geography, we should refrain from teaching theories of minimal evidence in science classes (i.e. global warming/climate change theories, macroevolutionary theory, the Big Bang theory, etc.) And a world religions class might help us understand ourselves and others better, and it would certainly help foreign policy if we had citizens with a bit of a clue as to the tenets of Islam. That way we could better plan our behaviors and policies and the public would understand the meanings behind the actions. And it would give us a place to teach our children about the "other" beliefs concerning the origin/creation of the universe, planet, man, etc.

Spiritual things are visible and interactive just like things are physically, but of course you need your spiritual senses to interact with them and see them. The matter that makes up spirit objects is such more fine, pure, and refined.

{"commentId":1395122,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
  • 2 votes
#11.5 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:58 PM EST
{"commentId":1395527,"authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
badkungfu

Of course, science classes shouldn't discuss things other than science, but just like we don't teach crackpot historical interpretations in history class...

I'm honestly curious TJ, so don't take offense, but I thought that LDS believed that major wars took place here in North America- where there is no historical evidence to support it. I can't seem to find any information about it online, so maybe wherever I read that completely made it up. I also thought I read about LDS tours where you could visit the supposed sites of these ancient cultures and battles.

I'm not looking to turn this into a big LDS debate, just wondered if you could clear that up.

{"commentId":1395527,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
  • 5 votes
#11.6 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:35 AM EST
{"commentId":1395705,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
foolishgeorge

refrain from teaching theories of minimal evidence in science classes (i.e. global warming/climate change theories, macroevolutionary theory, the Big Bang theory, etc.)

Theories of "minimal evidence" -- and it's debatable what means 'minimal' -- are theories nonetheless. Distinction (as has been said many times): theories are testable by gathering evidence. Science advances by the testing of theories. If you don't teach that process in science class, then what do you teach?

If we all understood process more completely, perhaps we as a society would not make so many bad decisions.

{"commentId":1395705,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
  • 8 votes
#11.7 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:28 AM EST
{"commentId":1395739,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
iarnuocon

Good call, danielf. Plus, I have a serious problem with the idea that "macroevolutionary theory" has "minimal" evidence. In the first place, the micro/macro distinction is largely adhered to by people who don't have a clue as to what evolutionary theory says, or disagree with evolutionary theory because of religious beliefs; and in the second, "macro" evolutionary theory is based on a hell of a LOT of evidence. People who think that it isn't are recommended to read Ernst Meyr's book What Evolution Is.

As far as "spiritual matter" and its being "much more fine, pure, and refined"-- when you have some evidence that there is such a thing, then we can talk. Right now, it belongs in the class of imaginary substances for which there is absolutely no proof-- phlogiston, aether, et cetera. Hell, dark matter has more evidence going for it than "spiritual matter." And then you have to consider that you'd be naturalizing the supernatural. I'm not sure how many people would get on board with the program of minimizing their God to an entity obeying natural laws. What largely seems to be the case is that those people would like to exempt God from natural laws while continuing to claim that science proves their supernatural beliefs are legitimate. That, as I've written elsewhere on Newsvine, isn't going to happen.

But I completely agree that a world religions class would be a good idea, and that creation stories rightfully belong there, instead of in biology 101. My high school offered a course call Western Civilization. It wasn't a religion class, but it did cover everything I learned in my first three college quarters of Art History, my Intro to History course, and then some.

{"commentId":1395739,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
  • 11 votes
#11.8 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:47 AM EST
{"commentId":1395930,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
foolishgeorge

Absolutely right. How could you teach any sort of history without considering the impact of religion? All kinds of wars look really pointless if you take out the religious disputes. What is history of art without religious subjects? Bible in literature? Sure. Just as it makes sense to talk about the history of medieval Islamic science when teaching astronomy.

So a class that teaches comparatives, managed sensitively, would be highly beneficial. My school is actually looking for someone who can do just that.

{"commentId":1395930,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
  • 3 votes
#11.9 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:48 AM EST
{"commentId":1396690,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
Belarius

Before anything could be created in its physical form, it was created in its spiritual form, and thus is the solution to the problem!

So you're saying that we can reconcile science and religion... using the Matrix?

Spiritual things are visible and interactive just like things are physically, but of course you need your spiritual senses to interact with them and see them. The matter that makes up spirit objects is such more fine, pure, and refined.

I must say, this is the first time I've seen an assertion that religious experience causes a whole new world of physical-seeming objects to apparently spring into being. Most people would call that hallucination. Were Mr. Smith's golden plates (so rarely seen by others thanks to their penchant for being spirited away by angels) in this class of invisible-to-the-nonbeliever goodies?

Then again, if such spirit-stuff was involved in biological processes, and spirituality is necessary to interact with it, how do can it act on animals (who, by most accounts, lack the capacity for faith)? Are animals inherently spiritual?

{"commentId":1396690,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
  • 4 votes
#11.10 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:56 PM EST
{"commentId":1397860,"authorDomain":"josh-of-arc"}
Josh of Arc

There were two creations. Before anything could be created in its physical form, it was created in its spiritual form, and thus is the solution to the problem! Moses's account skips over the physical creation. The theologians cannot reconcile scripture with science, but Latter-day Saint doctrine has no problem accepting the geology AND the scripture behind it all.

TJ, you're essentially saying that in order for one religious explanation to work, you have to look to another religion's?

While this works within your beliefs as a LDS, it doesn't for someone who is a garden-variety Christian. And for someone like me, who is a plain old secular humanist, it is circular logic at best... akin to saying that "The Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it is the word of God."

I don't begrudge you your faith and respect that you have faith; however, using un-rational (not irrational) belief to attempt to explain -- even within a Biblical context -- what needs empirical evidence to have others believe and appreciate doesn't work.

-J

{"commentId":1397860,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"josh-of-arc"}
  • 4 votes
#11.11 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:08 PM EST
{"commentId":1401799,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
TJ Thompson

badkungfu,
There is historical evidence. History requires the written word, and the Book of Mormon constitutes that written word. The problem is that the book is rarely accepted by people as scripture, so most people do not believe that the history contained in it are true. Of course, the only people who might have passed down oral histories on the subject are the Native Americans, and there are things in Native American culture that seem reminiscent of Book of Mormon artifacts. I do not know of any tours on the matter.

danielf,
When you find a way of experimentally researching the Big Bang Theory, let me know, because until a scientist gets it to work in a lab setting, which would obviously be a farfetched thing, then why should I buy the cop-out that all of a sudden matter just expanded into a universe and here we are? That sounds so religious, but it is masked by the endorsement of scientists, who are, by nature, hungry enough for explanations that they will seek them out just as hopefully as Christians seek out words in the Bible.

iarnuocon,
I have studied college-level biology and do know the distinction between macro- and micro-evolution. It is an important distinction. Microevolutionary processes such as adaptations have been proven. The macroevolutionary theory that humans descended from primeval species is an unproven, baseless ideology worthy of the theologian's contempt. Of course, most people hate to imagine that their God obeys natural laws and works through science. Science is just another branch of truth that God uses for His divine purposes. There is substantial support for a belief in spirit matter. Everything is matter, and there is no such thing as immaterial matter, so if a spirit exists, and I believe that spirits do exist, then it must be made of something, and that something must be matter. Of course, if you don't believe in spirits, then you would probably not believe in spirit matter.

Belarius,
You misinterpret the meaning of spiritual things. Spiritual simply refers to that which precedes the physical in creation, not that you have to believe it to see it. I don't mean "spiritual" like in the sentence "The religious man was spiritual." I mean it in the sense that everything has a spirit. Before the tree down the street was created as a physical entity, it was created by God as a spiritual entity. Your body is the tabernacle for your spirit, and of course before you were a spirit you were an intelligence, which never was created, neither indeed can be, but existed from all eternity.

Josh of Arc,
I respect that you are the type of person who requires scientific proof, but I don't need science to prove some basic truths, as I consider them. For example, it is a basic truth to me that God created the world and the creatures contained within. Of course, that leads me to wonder HOW, WHY, etc., regarding the matter, and I am grateful that I believe in a creed that has explanations for all these things, and I consider myself a logical and intelligent enough person to see when something makes zero sense, and I can honestly say that I do not mindlessly believe these things. They have all been explained to me in a way that makes sense with the science that I have learned, and I am not afraid of science. The more the world learns things, the more they prove what the LDS Church has already been saying. There was a day when the popular belief was that tobacco was actually GOOD for your health. Well, Mormons went out and said that tobacco was bad and should not be used, and that it was a commandment to not use it. A few decades later, scientists proved that tobacco was not be beneficial, and then they proved that it was actually harmful. Science is a branch of truth, and God does not defy truth. It is against the nature of godliness to defy truth.

{"commentId":1401799,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
    #11.12 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:30 PM EST
    {"commentId":1401917,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
    mee

    When you find a way of experimentally researching the Big Bang Theory, let me know, because until a scientist gets it to work in a lab setting, which would obviously be a farfetched thing

    This is actually a good point, but there's a reason why big bang theory is something more than religious doctrine. Physicists have developed mathematical models of the universe based on things we can observe (relativity, quantum mechanics, etc). These models are very complex and I don't pretend to understand them. However, these models are the basis of the big bang theory. With this models the big bang theory was formulated. And, with this models, we can make predictions about the current state of the universe based on how we think the big bang theory occurred. Since we can make correct predictions, it lends support to this big bang model.

    Religious doctrine, on the other hand, doesn't predict much about the physical state of the universe.

    Also, your statements that the big bang is impossible to recreate is not exactly true. Particle colliders attempt to do this very thing, not by creating new universes, but by seeing what a primordial universe looked like.

    {"commentId":1401917,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
    • 3 votes
    #11.13 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:58 PM EST
    {"commentId":1401934,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
    mee

    Microevolutionary processes such as adaptations have been proven. The macroevolutionary theory that humans descended from primeval species is an unproven, baseless ideology worthy of the theologian's contempt.

    Not precisely. A more accurate explanation would be the long term accumulation of mutations that are benefited by natural selection. Macroevolution becomes nothing more than microevolution occurring in populations for billions of years.

    Spiritual simply refers to that which precedes the physical in creation, not that you have to believe it to see it.

    However, since there is no empirical scientific evidence that supports the existence of "spirit matter" the only proof of existence in one's faith in God and the belief that the spiritual realm exists. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

    {"commentId":1401934,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
    • 3 votes
    #11.14 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:01 PM EST
    {"commentId":1401948,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
    iarnuocon

    Wow. Just... wow.

    When you find a way of experimentally researching the Big Bang Theory, let me know It's called "high energy particle physics." Of course, that's the "experimental" portion. Then you've got the "observational" evidence through astrophysics, astronomy, et cetera.

    That sounds so religious, but it is masked by the endorsement of scientists, who are, by nature, hungry enough for explanations that they will seek them out just as hopefully as Christians seek out words in the Bible. Nice way to gloss over the difference, there.

    I have studied college-level biology and do know the distinction between macro- and micro-evolution. It is an important distinction. I'm sorry, it's a bull@!$%# distinction made up by evolution-deniers in an effort to downgrade the evidence for evolution. As far as the biological sciences are concerned, there is no difference between macro- and micro-evolution. They both rest on the same processes. Only creationists try to claim that they're fundamentally different.

    The macroevolutionary theory that humans descended from primeval species is an unproven, baseless ideology worthy of the theologian's contempt. Nice dogma, there, but I recommend actually knowing something about evolution before throwing out a canard such as that. There's a ton of evidence converging on evolution, and as much as any scientific theory can be "proven", evolution has been. I really don't want to recreate all the arguments here-- that's certainly not my intention for this article. But if you're interested in the evidence for evolution, again, I highly recommend Ernst Mayr's What Evolution Is as an introduction to some of the evidence.

    There is substantial support for a belief in spirit matter. Where?

    Before the tree down the street was created as a physical entity, it was created by God as a spiritual entity. Are we talking "ideal platonic forms" here, or what?

    {"commentId":1401948,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
    • 7 votes
    #11.15 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:06 PM EST
    {"commentId":1401951,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
    mee

    Science is a branch of truth, and God does not defy truth. It is against the nature of godliness to defy truth.

    That's fair enough, and I'm glad to see you don't seem fanatical in your beliefs. But, I must ask, in places where scientific evidence diverges with what religious doctrine teaches, what do you choose to believe?

    {"commentId":1401951,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
    • 1 vote
    #11.16 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:07 PM EST
    {"commentId":1401952,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
    TJ Thompson

    And, of course, genetic drift (i.e., founder effect, bottleneck effect, etc.). But these things may be limited to within families! There is no scientific basis for the notion of one or two ancestral organisms, just that species can change in limited amounts.

    {"commentId":1401952,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
      #11.17 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:07 PM EST
      {"commentId":1401981,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
      mee

      But these things may be limited to within families!

      And when they're limited to families, they just happen to change allelic frequencies within populations.

      But, let's say environmental pressures change, favoring the presence of a certain allele, and only decedents of this family survive. Well now you are drastically changing allelic frequencies. If the environment is very unstable, and mutations often change the types of alleles present in the population, you could overtime, produce a population (not a couple of individuals) that are vastly different than our original generation. This is how 'survival of the fittest' works to cause speciation. But the things you mentioned like genetic drift, founder affect and bottleneck affect also are different ways allelic frequencies can change.

      {"commentId":1401981,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
      • 2 votes
      #11.18 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:15 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402182,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
      space guy

      To me there is zero conflict between physics and the Bible. It clearly states that God spoke, and nothing became everything. The big bang theory and observations in astronomy basically provides the experimental evidence for that.

      Where's the issue?

      {"commentId":1402182,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
      • 4 votes
      #11.19 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:13 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402203,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      spiffie

      There is no scientific basis for the notion of one or two ancestral organisms, just that species can change in limited amounts.

      Where are the hominids before 6-7 million years ago (Mya)? Where are the mammals before 70 Mya? Where are the reptiles before 315 Mya? The rise of new families preserved in the geological record provide very strong observational evidence, and thus a strong "scientific basis" for common descent.

      {"commentId":1402203,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      • 4 votes
      #11.20 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:20 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402205,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      spiffie

      The big bang theory and observations in astronomy basically provides the experimental evidence for that.

      Assuming, of course, that the Big Bang was "the" beginning, and not something else. :-)

      {"commentId":1402205,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      • 1 vote
      #11.21 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:21 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402260,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
      space guy

      Well science assumes that today although there is speculation about the big crunch and cyclic universes. Recent advanced theory shows that there is less than 10% of the mass in the universe to support that theory.

      You either have to believe science or not. It is not pick and choose.

      {"commentId":1402260,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
      • 2 votes
      #11.22 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:35 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402270,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
      mee

      it's not like science only proposes one theory though. There are physicists that don't agree with string theory, for example.

      {"commentId":1402270,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
      • 1 vote
      #11.23 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:38 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402299,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      spiffie

      The big crunch isn't the only hypothesis out there. Some flavors of M-theory, for instance, have put forth that brane collision might be responsible for the Big Bang.

      {"commentId":1402299,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      • 2 votes
      #11.24 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:47 PM EST
      {"commentId":1402440,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
      Belarius

      History requires the written word, and the Book of Mormon constitutes that written word.

      History requires more than a single source, and it requires all sources to be viewed with a certain suspicion. Was the author perceiving things correctly? Did he or she have an agenda? We can learn a lot about an area by reading its propaganda, but we don't necessarily believe what the propaganda says. And the consensus of people in the history profession is that the Book of Mormon makes historical claims that appear to be in conflict with the rest of the evidence.

      The macroevolutionary theory that humans descended from primeval species is an unproven, baseless ideology worthy of the theologian's contempt.

      Actually, this specific relationship has been demonstrated through comparative genomics. Basic idea: chimps and humans have extremely similar chromosomes except for our Chromosome 2, which is distinct from their Chromosomes 12 and 13. What is especially interesting is that our Chromosome 2 appears to be the result of their Chromosomes 12 and 13 being mashed together: we can see large amounts of structural similarity between the species even in the main area of difference. This is an excellent example, but it is by no means the only one: comparative genomics is currently building a clearer taxonomic history than we've ever had before, and these sorts of similarity-by-successive-genetic-approximation are ubiquitous in the genomes of all species examined.

      I mean it in the sense that everything has a spirit. Before the tree down the street was created as a physical entity, it was created by God as a spiritual entity.

      So you're a Mormon animist?

      For example, it is a basic truth to me that God created the world and the creatures contained within. Of course, that leads me to wonder HOW, WHY, etc., regarding the matter, and I am grateful that I believe in a creed that has explanations for all these things, and I consider myself a logical and intelligent enough person to see when something makes zero sense, and I can honestly say that I do not mindlessly believe these things.

      So if you acknowledge that you have an imperfect knowledge of God's methods, why is it offensive to your being to believe that God used evolution to create the creature of the world gradually? If you think God "worked through it all in his head" (in a spiritual simulation if you will), why wouldn't evolution still turn out to be true, and why wouldn't evolution continue to be happening now? How is it that you're willing to accept some scientific details, but won't consider the possibility that science has shed more light on what you consider God's creation than prayer ever has?

      The answer, of course, is that your doctrinaire attitude toward this question prevents you from having an appropriate amount of skepticism about the human side of your faith. You know, the side where people say they've spoken to God, and transcribe the words, and translate them into other languages. The places that human error can be blamed for doctrinal mistakes. Some false prophets are not false because they lie, but simply because they believe things that are wrong. Scientists worldwide have thought things through and come to the conclusion that science and religion are not incompatible in theory. Many scientists are strong believer and practice their religions in a highly traditional manner. But science is incompatible with doctrinaire organized religion that takes the word of men to be the word of God. Taking God's existence on faith is fine, but taking the honesty and errorlessness of men on faith smacks of reckless trust.

      It is against the nature of godliness to defy truth.

      Faith cannot be the criterion for truth, because almost everyone is wrong. Take any conventional wisdom from 100 years ago ("women are completely irrational" for example) and compare it to what we know now. Now consider how much more we'll know in another 100 years. We will look like fools to our descendants - that's how progress looks. This is why skepticism pushes things forward. Religion has never driven this process, which is how things like the Dark Ages happened. Certainly, people of faith have driven this process for much of history, but that's because you can be religious and scientific at the same time.

      But, I must ask, in places where scientific evidence diverges with what religious doctrine teaches, what do you choose to believe?

      Given the flexibility of religious doctrines in the past, I'd say that religion tends to adapt to the science. It has already happened in most of the developed world: America is one of the holdouts on the evolution question, and the rest of the developed world can't believe how ignorant our religious plurality can be. When religion and science diverge, religion will change, given time. There are those who reject religion entirely and choose science (like myself) and history doesn't generally look back at us as ignorant in our time. There are those who reject science and embrace religion (like yourself), and history looks back at your ilk as the opponents of progress and wisdom. And then there's the people who eventually reconcile their religion with what science they learn in school, who are overwhelmingly in the majority.

      We no longer think the Sun goes around the Earth. We no longer think disease is a form of demonic possession. Religion has taken this in stride. And those of us who keep learning and keep revising our assumptions will end our lives with a far more accurate understanding of the world than our grandparents did.

      {"commentId":1402440,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
      • 7 votes
      #11.25 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:31 PM EST
      {"commentId":1403177,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
      TJ Thompson

      mee,
      Okay, so you basically restated the basis of Hardy-Weinberg. What's the point? That's all an algebraic way of looking at something that really has too many variables to apply math to it. It's all idealistic. The fact is that scientists have never been able to prove that anything more than microevolutionary adaptations have ever happened.

      space guy,
      God did a great deal more than speaking to get all this to occur. The Hebrew word used for "create" translates better to "organize." There was no creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), but rather a very intense challenge God completed marvelously of putting together the necessary elements to molecules and continually more complex until all became as it was meant to be, according to His plan. It was all very scientific, so when people argue that God doesn't have to work through science, I respond: Science is the very tool of creation.

      Belarius,
      But why would our genetics be so similar? Could it be that the organisms have similar enough DNA to provide the similarities between the organisms and yet there is no ancestral link? There could have been some sort of convergent thing going on. For example, animals in Australia are very similar in many ways to those on mainland Europe and North America, but the biologist's and geologist's data show that, according to popular scientific theory, these organisms could not be related. Therefore, they had to suffer similar conditions for long enough to adapt to be similar, if you look at it from a microevolutionary standpoint. There are millions of species; it is obvious that there will be some similarities amongst them.

      That belief ("women are irrational") was never part of the belief system I have, and I refute the notion that all creeds are prone to these immense errors. If someone gets the creation wrong, that is a HUGE error! I read an excellent book on the matter ("Earth In the Beginning" by Eric N. Skousen, Ph.D.), and the book was heavy in science and LDS doctrine, and the overlap provided for a fantastic portrayal of scientifically evident truth, once the basic doctrines are accepted as truth. Of course, this book would be of little rational use to those not of the LDS faith, but to say that I deny the fundamental elements in order to be in line with current trends of the science community, well, that's precisely where the major errors of scholarship are found. Perhaps Christendom has made errors, but I believe in a restored gospel, so I don't have to try to explain the errors of the Roman Catholic Church, etc. I guess some might call that convenient, but with newness a church also doesn't get the amount of respect the Catholic Church gets (i.e. not being called a cult every day by bigots).

      {"commentId":1403177,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
        #11.26 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:12 AM EST
        {"commentId":1403190,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
        mee

        Okay, so you basically restated the basis of Hardy-Weinberg.

        Hardy-Weinberg conditions only apply is there is no evolution occurring... so, I don't know what you're trying to say here.

        The fact is that scientists have never been able to prove that anything more than microevolutionary adaptations have ever happened.

        Well that's true, if you ignore the mountains of genetic and fossil record data.

        {"commentId":1403190,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
        • 2 votes
        #11.27 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:18 AM EST
        {"commentId":1403225,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
        TJ Thompson

        mee,
        You were listing conditions in which allelic frequencies would change, and I was just saying that you were restating H-W.

        Anyway, the fossil record shows many abrupt starts and stops, so unless you believe that catastrophes brought about these evolutionary changes, then please explain. Species don't just suddenly appear according to the Darwinian theory of gradualism. I don't ignore the data, but I also don't just look at the parts that conveniently support evolution. I believe that the Creation of the world involved a very long preparatory epoch in which organisms were brought to the earth and then permitted to die out once their purposes were served. Then the earth was free of preparatory organisms, and the life on the planet now is unrelated to the organisms from the preparatory epoch, or did not descend from them. Though science cannot disprove this belief, it isn't getting in line to support it, either.

        {"commentId":1403225,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
          #11.28 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:45 AM EST
          {"commentId":1403251,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
          mee

          You were listing conditions in which allelic frequencies would change, and I was just saying that you were restating H-W.

          But that's not H-W, so why would you say it is? When a population is in H-W equilibrium, the allelic frequencies don't change, because no evolution is occurring.

          Anyway, the fossil record shows many abrupt starts and stops

          I don't know what you mean by this. abrupt starts and stops of what?

          unless you believe that catastrophes brought about these evolutionary changes, then please explain.

          No, the catastrophes don't cause the changes, they only select for variation that is already present in a population.

          I also don't just look at the parts that conveniently support evolution

          Are you saying you ignore evidence that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions? That's not very scientific.

          Though science cannot disprove this belief, it isn't getting in line to support it, either.

          That's because there is no evidence to support it. Such a theory that you describe isn't falsifiable, since it relies on the presence of a "heavenly meddler" at least how you have described it.

          I don't know what you mean by "permitted to die once their purposes where served" either. Science doesn't attempt to answer teleological questions like these, because they are not falsifiable.

          the life on the planet now is unrelated to the organisms from the preparatory epoch, or did not descend from them.

          So, what you suggest is that all the organisms died, to make way for the creation of new ones?

          What where these preparatory organisms? If you are referring to organisms that exist long time ago in the fossil record, you know that not all of them are extinct, right? Where they re-created?

          You seem to be going far out of your way, to reach an unparsimonious conclusion about creation, because evolutionary theory doesn't seem to conform to your religious beliefs. That's not a scientific way of thinking about the world.

          {"commentId":1403251,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
          • 4 votes
          #11.29 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:00 AM EST
          {"commentId":1403277,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
          TJ Thompson

          I never said they were in H-W. Just that those conditions are necessary for H-W. Maybe it was an irrelevant comment, but it seemed relevant at the time.

          I never said I don't look at the facts. Quite the contrary, actually. I said that I don't JUST look at things that are convenient to evolutionary theory like so-called "scientists" like to do a lot of these days.

          The preparatory organisms served their purposes. Similar organisms may exist now, but not the descendants of the preparatory ones. This isn't even official LDS doctrine. It's just a concept that seems most likely to me. It certainly explains all these fossils of organisms that I know could not have lived on this earth during or after Adam's time.

          By abrupt starts and stops, I refer to the sudden appearances of many organisms, like one day (or, geologically, one millennium) a new species just popped out of nowhere.

          {"commentId":1403277,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
            #11.30 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:25 AM EST
            {"commentId":1403286,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
            mee

            I said that I don't JUST look at things that are convenient to evolutionary theory like so-called "scientists" like to do a lot of these days.

            That still doesn't make any sense to me... Things that conveniently prove evolutionary theory you ignore, in favor for something that has no proof, but is more in line with LDS doctrine?

            The preparatory organisms served their purposes.

            And that purpose would be...?

            Similar organisms may exist now, but not the descendants of the preparatory ones.

            So, all the preparatory organisms were destroyed and were replaced with organisms that are genetically similar or identical to the preparatory organisms?
            When exactly did this happen?

            You do realize that this is contrary to fossil and genetic evidence that allows us to (albeit roughly) tell when various species evolved... all the modern species didn't evolve or come into being during a single event.

            a new species just popped out of nowhere

            I have seen no evidence that states a species just popped out of nowhere...

            Even missing data from the fossil evidence doesn't mean organisms simply popped out of nowhere... it just means the conditions required for an organism to fossilize are quite rare, so we will never be able to witness all of the transitional forms of organisms. That doesn't prove evolutionary theory false, by the way.

            {"commentId":1403286,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
            • 4 votes
            #11.31 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:33 AM EST
            {"commentId":1403298,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
            TJ Thompson

            Evolutionary theory is bad science for the most part. That is my belief, and some scientists agree.

            The purpose of the preparatory organisms was to prepare the atmosphere, land, and water for the life to come by providing resources such as oxygen and coal.

            The preparatory organisms gradually became extinct as their various and specific purposes were over. When did this happen? Well, they didn't all die out at the same time, but certainly all of them were dead before the modern life forms' progenitors were placed on the earth.

            I don't endorse everything on sites like straight-talk.net, but here is a pretty good page on the subject of gaps in the fossil record:

            {"commentId":1403298,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
              #11.32 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:44 AM EST
              {"commentId":1403306,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
              TJ Thompson

              It wants to omit the link, so here it is, sort of:

              http:// www.straight-talk. net/evolution/fossil.htm

              {"commentId":1403306,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                #11.33 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:50 AM EST
                {"commentId":1403317,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                mee

                Evolutionary theory is bad science for the most part. That is my belief, and some scientists agree.

                No scientist I've talked to has said that... perhaps it's an incomplete or unfinished theory, but it is by no means bad science.

                It's certainly better than what you are proposing, which isn't science at all. Any teleological explanation which proceeds to some purpose is simply not science.

                Also, I don't think you perhaps understand how the fossil record is used in evolutionary theory: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=8&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agiweb.org%2Fnews%2Fevolution.pdf&ei=2_WaR4yMM4PKepSngM4G&usg=AFQjCNEWJiOjdhAJRVjX-IfeKLjoXpTCkg&sig2=Y8dkNZMkvr85zUJ-d1iOLA

                {"commentId":1403317,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                • 3 votes
                #11.34 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:03 AM EST
                {"commentId":1403323,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                Belarius

                There could have been some sort of convergent thing going on. For example, animals in Australia are very similar in many ways to those on mainland Europe and North America, but the biologist's and geologist's data show that, according to popular scientific theory, these organisms could not be related. Therefore, they had to suffer similar conditions for long enough to adapt to be similar, if you look at it from a microevolutionary standpoint. There are millions of species; it is obvious that there will be some similarities amongst them.

                Here is where digging into the cutting edge of genetics would provide food for thought: convergent evolution has been shown to be convergent in terms of phenotype but not in terms of genotype. There are many ways genetically to accomplish the same phenotype. As striking as the similarities between Australian and European species in terms of their appearance, it turns out that their genotypes show the kind of striking divergence that evolutionary theory would predict. Obviously, this doesn't prove that God didn't just create them that way (hiding behind inscrutable omnipotence is the last refuge of the faithful anyway), but it is evidence that strongly supports the evolutionary hypothesis as well.

                Genomics is a statistical exercise, of course, so it only identifies the most parsimonious outcome, but given the massive amounts of information in the genome, the statistical error is quite small. It's a field that functions (from a procedural perspective) very much like the study of the evolution of languages, and has yielded similarly robust results, some of which are already being implemented in medicine.

                That belief ("women are irrational") was never part of the belief system I have, and I refute the notion that all creeds are prone to these immense errors. If someone gets the creation wrong, that is a HUGE error!

                I'm not accusing you of sexism - I'm saying sexism was essentially universal 100 years ago, and was considered by many to be religiously justified (daughters of Eve and all that). And many things we believe today will inevitably be disproved in 100 years. It is possible, for example, that research into animal cognition will render killing and eating animals taboo 100 years from now (for the record, I'm a happy carnivore, but culture will evolve without asking my opinion) - if it does, we'll all look like barbarians. It is the height of arrogance to assert that we have achieved the pinnacle of knowledge, and this is true not only of science but also of religion.

                Any person of faith should have the humility to allow the possibility that they may be wrong, because mankind has clearly gotten religion wrong in the past. Being from a new church doesn't absolve you of that responsibility toward your faith, and towards working hard to confirm that the doctrines you are raised with are actually compatible with God's will.

                I don't have to try to explain the errors of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.

                No, but you do have to explain the errors (or at least, the contradictions) of your own church doctrines. You're free to dismiss any scientific finding, no matter how corroborated, but you aren't going to change any minds unless you can articulate why you reject those theories. Calling evolution bad science is a cheap shot, especially since that "bad science" has overwhelmingly swept the field of biology and is now considered the central cornerstone of that discipline. I could call LDS a "bad faith" and it wouldn't convince you, would it? This is why it's so important to inform yourself not only about what those who agree with you believe, but with what those who disagree with you believe.

                But you avoid my core question: if God's ways are mysterious, why is it anathema to believe that evolution is God's will manifested on Earth? Why reject evolutionary ideas like speciation when it's entirely possible that God intends for life to flourish and adapt rather than fit into rigid molds? Explain the incompatibility instead of trying to short-circuit the debate by making sweeping accusations about a field you clearly don't participate in.

                {"commentId":1403323,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                • 7 votes
                #11.35 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:11 AM EST
                {"commentId":1404483,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                Jack Huang

                I respect that you are the type of person who requires scientific proof, but I don't need science to prove some basic truths, as I consider them. For example, it is a basic truth to me that God created the world and the creatures contained within.

                Even beyond the abject lack of understanding that makes you think we need scientific proof, therein lies a fundamental difference between you and the rest of us in this subdiscussion.

                We require evidence. You're confident in simply declaring a "basic truth" truthful.

                But why would our genetics be so similar? Could it be that the organisms have similar enough DNA to provide the similarities between the organisms and yet there is no ancestral link? There could have been some sort of convergent thing going on. For example, animals in Australia are very similar in many ways to those on mainland Europe and North America, but the biologist's and geologist's data show that, according to popular scientific theory, these organisms could not be related.

                Ahem, not related? Assuming you're talking about marsupials (essentially the only group that can be reliably stated to be truly isolated for any large amount of time), there are distinct differences between marsupials and other mammals.

                At one point, Australia was part of a supercontinent, so saying "these organisms could not be related" according to biology and geology demonstrates an ignorance of both.

                Of course, this book would be of little rational use to those not of the LDS faith

                So why even bring it up? "If you accept my religious doctrine as Truth, then like, this book that sorta contains sciencey stuff is totally useful."

                all the modern species didn't evolve or come into being during a single event.

                And just to give his statements a bit of undue credence, even the Cambrian explosion and post-Cretaceous extinction was hardly the exclusive beginnings and ends for preparatory and post-preparatory creatures.

                The purpose of the preparatory organisms was to prepare the atmosphere, land, and water for the life to come by providing resources such as oxygen and coal.

                Support this statement.

                By abrupt starts and stops, I refer to the sudden appearances of many organisms, like one day (or, geologically, one millennium) a new species just popped out of nowhere.

                Out of nowhere? Ah yes, because you can know anything like that with any certainty. Ignorance is not evidence of absence.

                I never said I don't look at the facts. Quite the contrary, actually. I said that I don't JUST look at things that are convenient to evolutionary theory like so-called "scientists" like to do a lot of these days.

                Frankly, with the understanding of science you've shown here, it really is essentially mandatory that you put any science-related words in quotes.

                When did this happen? Well, they didn't all die out at the same time, but certainly all of them were dead before the modern life forms' progenitors were placed on the earth.

                So when did this time of post-preparatory Earthly barrenness occur? Any scientific evidence you want to cite for that?

                {"commentId":1404483,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                • 5 votes
                #11.36 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:18 PM EST
                {"commentId":1405209,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                TJ Thompson

                Belarius,
                "He who does not eat meat denieth the faith." I believe that in 100 years the world will be ruled by a far more capable Source, who is Christ Himself, but I understand your example in terms of your own thinking.

                I also would like to clarify that though sexism was a widespread sentiment 100 years ago, it has never been a tenet of my faith (meaning the faith of my fathers, included) that women are inferior in the least regard. As to the progressive appeal of the LDS faith, one of the major reasons why the LDS people were driven out of every town they inhabited or built up was their apparently very disagreeable abolitionist stance in a time and place when and where slavery was a social and an economic statement, and any group that was going to vote in a bloc against it was not going to be given a very easy ride.

                Evolutionary theory is bad science not because it is wrong, even, but because its major founders admitted its inevitable problems! Darwin himself, the major pastor-equivalent of the movement, said that study of the eye alone rendered him entirely incapable of believing his own theories, but then of course he still believed them, at least so he said. Darwin was very fidgety about his theories; he was noticeably troubled that there was so much he could not explain, and it is historically noted that Darwin did his very best to ignore those topics he was unsure about and continue to spread what he knew had their flaws. If that is not bad science, I don't know what is. It reminds me of a doctor who makes every possible attempt to hide a tumor from his patient because he simply cannot announce the diagnosis. Darwin's theories are full of these tumorlike flaws, and though there are evident truths in what he has proposed, the tumors have controlled the science and driven it in a very bad direction.

                Evolution, in the sense of one or a few ancestors for the whole collection of organisms on this planet (the adaptations I will not deny), is not the means by which God created this all, because in order for that to be so, Adam and Eve could not have been our first parents on this planet. They would simply have been children of more primeval parents. That cannot be, of course, because they names Adam and Eve carry within them miraculous meanings. Adam is the "first man," and Eve is the "mother of all living," and the humans on this planet revere them as such! Looking at science, we see that there are many complex microscopic structures that could not have functioned at all in an intermediary stage; these structures must have existed as they do now for all life that ever needed them. Dr. Gould of Harvard University admits that there is an "extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record," and that the "evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have only data at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference...not the evidence of fossils." In short, I do not believe that God used evolution because it is at odds with my doctrinal understanding; the fact that science is inconclusive about evolution only makes it easier to stick to my beliefs.

                Jack Huang,
                I admire your scholarly hunger for evidence, evidence, evidence!, but God has left plenty of evidence in the ground and in the water and in the air, and does anyone really understand it all? There is plenty of evidence in favor of what I propose, just as there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Nature has been used to prove the earth is flat, to prove it is round, to prove we live in a heliocentric system, to prove that the earth is the center of the universe, to prove that there are subatomic particles that we cannot see and do not have mass but vibrate, and sundry other things extremely violent in their proposition and dismissal, and entirely similar to the faith-based doctrines of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, because science is largely religion. I have given plenty of evidence regarding why I believe that evolution is not true, and yes, a lot of it is doctrinal, but I have also noted a fair amount of science. Now, I am not an expert in science, and I have only been minimally introduced to evolutionary theory and geology, but I know enough to know that it does not make as much sense as many would have me believe. Evolution is still but a theory, so it is fair game to criticism.

                {"commentId":1405209,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                  #11.37 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:40 PM EST
                  {"commentId":1405257,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                  space guy

                  I also would like to clarify that though sexism was a widespread sentiment 100 years ago, it has never been a tenet of my faith (meaning the faith of my fathers, included) that women are inferior in the least regard. As to the progressive appeal of the LDS faith, one of the major reasons why the LDS people were driven out of every town they inhabited or built up was their apparently very disagreeable abolitionist stance in a time and place when and where slavery was a social and an economic statement, and any group that was going to vote in a bloc against it was not going to be given a very easy ride.

                  Uh actually it is because the leaders were boffing every female they could get their hands on until their leader was murdered by jealous husbands in the area.

                  {"commentId":1405257,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                  • 2 votes
                  #11.38 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:02 PM EST
                  {"commentId":1405323,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                  foolishgeorge

                  Nature has been used to prove the earth is flat, to prove it is round, to prove we live in a heliocentric system, to prove that the earth is the center of the universe,

                  Please do not use the word prove so easily. The statement 'the earth is flat' was a mere assertion, with no evidence, no support and in no way proven. The fact that many superstitious folk believed it over hundreds of years does not constitute proof. Same for 'the earth is the center of the universe'. An assertion made by a power group that believed that they were in possession of something unique. Assertion is not proof.

                  to prove that there are subatomic particles that we cannot see and do not have mass but vibrate

                  Now you enter a realm where there is ample evidence. What is the significance of 'we cannot see'? We detect, we do not need to 'see'. Neutrinos in fact do have mass and their oscillation is a change of state. New data prompts revision to the existing theory and that does not mean the theory is wrong.

                  and sundry other things extremely violent in their proposition and dismissal, and entirely similar to the faith-based doctrines of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, because science is largely religion.

                  Since the days of Galileo (16th century), we have labored with the benefit of what is known as scientific method. This tried and true process has eliminated any 'similarity' to faith based doctrines.

                  {"commentId":1405323,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                  • 3 votes
                  #11.39 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:31 PM EST
                  {"commentId":1405337,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                  Jack Huang

                  Now, I am not an expert in science, and I have only been minimally introduced to evolutionary theory and geology, but I know enough to know that it does not make as much sense as many would have me believe.

                  Translation: I barely know anything about what we're talking about, but I know enough to be pompous about it and declare it crap.

                  I wonder if you would regard a similar argument of "Mormonism is silly, cuz like... gold books, yo!" with any seriousness.

                  Nature has been used to prove the earth is flat, to prove it is round, to prove we live in a heliocentric system, to prove that the earth is the center of the universe, to prove that there are subatomic particles that we cannot see and do not have mass but vibrate, and sundry other things extremely violent in their proposition and dismissal

                  It's statements like this that make it very hard to intellectually respect you in any way. Those ideas were never proofs or proven. They are theories. Read more, starting with the dictionary.

                  I have given plenty of evidence regarding why I believe that evolution is not true, and yes, a lot of it is doctrinal, but I have also noted a fair amount of science.

                  A fair amount of science? Let's review your comments, shall we?

                  12.37: Pure doctrine.
                  12.33: Go read TalkOrigins.org
                  12.32: Wild speculation + Argument from [Entirely Unknown] Authority (some scientists supposedly agree)
                  12.30: Wild speculation/personal guesses.
                  12.28: Your information is out of date by a few decades. Evolutionary theory is no longer entirely Darwinian. Science is not immutable like religion. Again, read more.

                  Though science cannot disprove this belief, it isn't getting in line to support it, either.

                  The same can be said about unicorns orbiting Vega and teapots in the asteroid belt.

                  12.26: More equivocation of "theory" and "proof" mixed with a misunderstood mashup of geologic history and convergent evolution.

                  12.17: Ah, turns out you know some smart-sounding buzzwords. The conclusions draw from those had been subsequently rebutted and corrected, though.

                  12.12: You profess college-level biology education, yet draw a line in the sand between micro- and macroevolution. I question your choice of college.

                  Comments before those did not focus on evolution.

                  So I ask again, where is this "fair amount of science" you claim to have noted?

                  {"commentId":1405337,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                  • 6 votes
                  #11.40 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:40 PM EST
                  {"commentId":1405429,"authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                  Wheel

                  12.17: Ah, turns out you know some smart-sounding buzzwords. The conclusions draw from those had been subsequently rebutted and corrected, though.

                  I think he got some coaching there, or a pinch hitter or something. If you read all of his posts, that one seems to have a different tone and word cadence

                  {"commentId":1405429,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                  • 2 votes
                  #11.41 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:18 PM EST
                  {"commentId":1405591,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                  TJ Thompson

                  Jack Huang,
                  I'm not in college, LOL. I'm admitted to BYU-Idaho but that's for the fall. I'm only a senior in high school, so take my supposed knowledge of science with a grain of salt. I was coaxed into a boring and tedious AP biology course that I am doing well in, but only because I can repeat useless theories at the drop of a hat. That is why I have admitted from the beginning of this debate that my knowledge of science is limited -- very limited -- but still worthy of some level of consideration.

                  SpaceGuy,
                  You are clearly not a scholar of LDS history. I have read several texts on the subject, and even that PBS documentary (which was poorly made) agrees with yours truly. I am rebuked for talking about science, so I think I have a good reason for rebuking those who talk about LDS history as if they have an idea, when clearly you do not understand the basics of 19th century sentiment in regard to the LDS faith.

                  Wheel,
                  No, I was just remembering what I have most recently learned in my biology class. We just finished our unit on evolution, and it was boring but easy. It's like reciting Cinderella or another fun yet stupid fairy tale.

                  danielf,
                  Faith is used a lot in life. There is nothing wrong with it being used in science, but it certainly does change science's macho reputation in the world of scholarship. I've read about science, and I've read about religion, and they both have their doctrines.

                  {"commentId":1405591,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                    #11.42 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:22 PM EST
                    {"commentId":1405707,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                    Belarius

                    I believe that in 100 years the world will be ruled by a far more capable Source, who is Christ Himself

                    You and millennialists for the last 1800 years. You're certainly free to believe it, but Christianity has a poor track record for predicting the return of Jesus. I expect humanity will still be self-governing in 100 years, and if you don't, I'm not sure I trust you to help plan for the future my grandchildren will be living in.

                    Darwin himself, the major pastor-equivalent of the movement, said that study of the eye alone rendered him entirely incapable of believing his own theories

                    You'll be happy to know that (a) most scientists today admit that Darwin had most of the details wrong (it was, after all, a first pass) and (b) evolution as it is currently understood can quite handily explain the evolution of eyes. The morphological differences between (for example) mammalian eyes and squid eyes suggest that eyes evolved multiple times, differently for each lineage. The fact that squid actually have better eyes than humans (because their capillaries don't obstruct the retina) is a remarkably short-sighted design for a creature "created in God's image."

                    The underlying problem with your criticism is that you're fixated on Darwin. Sure Darwin had a bunch of mistakes: so did Newton! Newton actually fudged the math in a lot of places because he couldn't get the numbers to square. But in the last century, we've built on their theories and achieved new levels of understanding. On The Origin Of Species is not the "bible" of evolution. It's just the first brick in a massive and increasingly stable edifice.

                    the fact that science is inconclusive about evolution only makes it easier to stick to my beliefs.

                    Your understanding of evolution is sadly misinformed: the science is overwhelmingly conclusive, and growing daily. You're right that Gould's study of fossils and his theory of "punctuated equilibrium" have major problems, but his theory is decades old by now. Recent advances in genetic analysis are filling those gaps, and rapidly. Darwin didn't know about DNA - we only just discovered it in the last couple of lifetimes, and it has blown our understanding of evolutionary processes wide open. We're even seeing evolution in action as well, in the form of resistant species of pathogens, insects, and plants. Understanding this adaptation will be critical in dealing with the problems they currently present.

                    I have given plenty of evidence regarding why I believe that evolution is not true, and yes, a lot of it is doctrinal, but I have also noted a fair amount of science.

                    You've presented science written over 100 years ago as "science." Science is characterized by changing its theories to fit the data, so using theories that have already been passed over is a pretty poor form of argumentation. It is precisely as convincing as my using the "mistakes of the Catholics" (as you put it) as a way of attacking LDS.

                    Now, I am not an expert in science, and I have only been minimally introduced to evolutionary theory and geology, but I know enough to know that it does not make as much sense as many would have me believe.

                    "A little learning is a dang'rous thing;
                    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring;
                    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
                    and drinking largely sobers us again.
                    Fir'd at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
                    In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts,
                    While from the bounded level of our mind,
                    Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind;
                    But more advanc'd, behold with strange surprise
                    New distant scenes of endless science rise!"

                    - Alexander Pope

                    {"commentId":1405707,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                    • 7 votes
                    #11.43 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:10 AM EST
                    {"commentId":1405731,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                    Belarius

                    That is why I have admitted from the beginning of this debate that my knowledge of science is limited -- very limited -- but still worthy of some level of consideration.

                    If you want to dig into the topic (so as to be better informed), you might consider giving Your Inner Fish a read. After all, it can hardly hurt to read about evolution from a more sophisticated source than a high school textbook.

                    I can honestly say that I didn't understand genetics at all until college, and that understanding is crucial to modern evolutionary theory. I'd recommend The Selfish Gene, but I have a feeling you'd dismiss it out of hand for what are essentially political reasons, namely who wrote it.

                    {"commentId":1405731,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                    • 5 votes
                    #11.44 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:22 AM EST
                    {"commentId":1405758,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                    spiffie

                    Definitely further reading is recommended. Also, follow Jack's advice, and visit talkorigins.org. Every question or point brought up against evolution has been rebutted or refuted there. I've never run across one that hadn't already been so. For instance, the comment about Darwin and the evolution of the eye:

                    Claim CA113.1:

                    Charles Darwin acknowledged the inadequacy of evolution when he wrote,

                    To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. (Darwin 1872)

                    Source:

                    Huse, Scott. 1996. The Collapse of Evolution. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, p. 73.
                    Response:

                    The quote is taken out of context. Darwin answered the seeming problem he introduced. The paragraph continues,

                    Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)

                    Darwin continues with three more pages describing a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable.

                    The site also includes citations and links. Check it out.

                    {"commentId":1405758,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                    • 4 votes
                    #11.45 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:34 AM EST
                    {"commentId":1405843,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                    TJ Thompson

                    Belarius,
                    So if science from the 1800s is no longer good enough to be called "science" today, then why should I accept today's science as "science" in the perennial sense of the word? How can something be a plausible theory one decade and be laughable the next? Is that the science that we have come to embrace over the years: one that is only true for a season?

                    I love the Alexander Pope quote. In fact I wrote an excellent writing for a class recently on a different Pope passage about the ever-changing course of science, from the passage "First follow nature...." Certainly Pope was a promoter of the sciences, but not in the take-no-prisoners way that modern scientists do. Pope preferred reason and temperate study, as far as I can tell.

                    I will not be reading up on the issues of evolution because, quite honestly, I have not even begun much reading on religion that I would like to do. Why study other religions before mine own religion? By the time I got to those books the major theories would be revised by yet more scientists. That would be unfortunate.

                    Spiffie,
                    Well, I guess Darwin was one of those annoying individuals who asks questions he already knows the answers to. Those people always want attention and never have an honest point.

                    {"commentId":1405843,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                      #11.46 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:14 AM EST
                      {"commentId":1405861,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                      Jack Huang

                      ...only because I can repeat useless theories at the drop of a hat. That is why I have admitted from the beginning of this debate that my knowledge of science is limited -- very limited -- but still worthy of some level of consideration.

                      You admit very limited knowledge when your ignorance is revealed, yet assume a pompous worldly stance when judging scientific theories to be "useless," and further still, somehow think you're in any position to indict space guy for talking about LDS history? Your behavior is precisely identical to me saying "Mormonism blows, cuz like... gold books!"

                      Would you accept that, at face value, as a serious, cogent criticism of LDS?

                      The point of my previous comment is that you've presented no science, yet tried to give yourself credibility through pomp and bluster. If you think you know enough science to discount it outright, you should certainly know enough to know that science requires far more than overwrought self-confidence.

                      Since you unequivocally admit you know very little science, keep that in mind when you attempt to claim that you know science or any part of it well enough to label it "bad" or "useless."

                      I've read about science, and I've read about religion, and they both have their doctrines.

                      I'll take that statement with the same colossal grain of salt as your previous claims of knowing "a fair amount of science."

                      It's like reciting Cinderella or another fun yet stupid fairy tale.

                      At least it wasn't written on gold books in gibberish. ;-)

                      {"commentId":1405861,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                      • 3 votes
                      #11.47 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:27 AM EST
                      {"commentId":1405875,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                      spiffie

                      Well, I guess Darwin was one of those annoying individuals who asks questions he already knows the answers to.

                      Or perhaps he simply wrote in a time when the dialectic method was still much in vogue among academics. Or perhaps he was someone who just throws out whatever ideas popped into his head (although I doubt that one). I find those people pretty annoying, since it's pretty clear their parents were deficient in the "think before speaking" portion of child-rearing.

                      {"commentId":1405875,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                      • 2 votes
                      #11.48 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:33 AM EST
                      {"commentId":1405896,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                      Jack Huang

                      then why should I accept today's science as "science" in the perennial sense of the word?

                      If by "perennial sense of the word," you mean "immutable doctrine of science," scientific theories are never immutable doctrines. Why wish doctrine upon science, beyond deluding yourself to putting religion on an equal playing field and making science a bogeyman you can pretend to drum your fists against?

                      Is that the science that we have come to embrace over the years: one that is only true for a season?

                      Science has always had the humility to embrace change and modify current theories when contradictory evidence is found. That's one of the foundational aspects of science. It doesn't have the overwrought arrogance to insist it's Right when evidence says it isn't (and at any other time, for that matter). That is the realm of religion.

                      Certainly Pope was a promoter of the sciences, but not in the take-no-prisoners way that modern scientists do. Pope preferred reason and temperate study, as far as I can tell.

                      Take-no-prisoners? Again, you would do well to keep in mind your self-professed scant knowledge of science when you next pass Judgment on scientists.

                      I will not be reading up on the issues of evolution because, quite honestly, I have not even begun much reading on religion that I would like to do. Why study other religions before mine own religion?

                      Ah yes, the mark of an arrogant dogmatist: declaring the evils or inferiority of something without bothering to understand it in the slightest. "I won't bother reading anything on Mormonism, but I know it's like, so totally bulls---. Joseph Smith is f---tarded... because!"

                      By the time I got to those books the major theories would be revised by yet more scientists. That would be unfortunate.

                      If you prioritize truth over convenience of perusal, then no, that wouldn't be unfortunate at all. We have different priorities, apparently.

                      Well, I guess Darwin was one of those annoying individuals who asks questions he already knows the answers to. Those people always want attention and never have an honest point.

                      Pot, meet kettle.

                      You've amply demonstrated your ignorance of science, your revelry in said ignorance, your intellectual tomfoolery, and the nonexistent level of understanding you personally require to pass Judgment on something. Frankly, your cute little description of Darwin sounds pretty darn good compared to that.

                      {"commentId":1405896,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                      • 6 votes
                      #11.49 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:45 AM EST
                      {"commentId":1405965,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                      Belarius

                      So if science from the 1800s is no longer good enough to be called "science" today, then why should I accept today's science as "science" in the perennial sense of the word?

                      I'm afraid Jack Huang has this one licked: you're using the word "science" wrong. Science is never permanent, never something we can learn now and know forever. As you are no doubt aware, humans are imperfect. This is why we cannot "know" things with complete certainty, and why anyone who claims to be 100% certain is fooling themselves - there is always room for doubt. Science is a way to improve on what we already know. For example, saying that "the Earth is flat" is false and saying "the Earth is a sphere" is also false (it's very slightly non-spherical). But one is obviously more wrong than the other. Science is a process by which humanity moves towards theories that are less wrong. So while what Darwin was practice would still be considered Science, he didn't know what we know now.

                      Again, to be clear: Science Is A Process The theories change thanks to our collective effort, and we must change with them because we aren't going to get at the truth by ourselves.

                      Certainly Pope was a promoter of the sciences, but not in the take-no-prisoners way that modern scientists do. Pope preferred reason and temperate study, as far as I can tell.

                      The key to science is that it only works when people fight tooth and nail over the theories, and not take the result personally. The reason science works is because there is acompetition of ideas, and any that don't stand up to the criticism wither away. This has always been true: look at the nastiness between Liebnitz and Newton, for example. But we now have a system for channeling that nastiness productively: double-blind peer review. It's astonishingly effective at culling weak theories, and requires that new ideas have strong evidence before being accepted. Scientists don't always remain civil of course, and many are intransigent. But science works even when scientists don't do their job as well as they could because it's a collective market of ideas.

                      I will not be reading up on the issues of evolution because, quite honestly, I have not even begun much reading on religion that I would like to do. Why study other religions before mine own religion? By the time I got to those books the major theories would be revised by yet more scientists. That would be unfortunate.

                      Mr. Pope has a point: having only tasted of evolutionary theory, you're not in a position to criticize it. Drink deep, or taste not. And after all, wasn't it you who said that rejecting the truth of reality is an affront to God? You must admit that your perceptions are imperfect and your knowledge is limited, so why reject the notion that you can improve your sense of God's creation?

                      More to the point, if you reject an idea you haven't delved deeply, and it turns out you were wrong, haven't you committed a sin of ignorance? Isn't a refusal to study God' creation by every means available an act of sloth?

                      Here's my thinking: read more of everything. Can't really hurt, can it? Or will you refuse, on the basis of your own pride?

                      {"commentId":1405965,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                      • 4 votes
                      #11.50 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:47 AM EST
                      {"commentId":1406004,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                      TJ Thompson

                      Jack,
                      You try to convince me not to insult science by saying that I would never give someone a pass for insulting the LDS Church without a real argument, but then you go ahead and do just that. Logic would have me believe that you really don't care about me insulting science; you just want an excuse to insult religion.

                      Belarius,
                      Glad to see that you have more of a civilized air about you than Jack over there. A bright guy, he is, but he can't keep from spitting on religion, which is sad at best, and barbaric at worst.

                      As for studying the Creation, I have done some of that and continue to do some of that, and what I have studied directly contradicts evolution. Just as I won't study the Qur'an "just in case" I'm not going to study books on evolution "just in case." No offense, but I don't like evolutionary theory and therefore I'm not going to school myself in it. There are a million disciplines to study, and biological science is not for me, at least not today's flavor.

                      {"commentId":1406004,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                        #11.51 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:39 AM EST
                        {"commentId":1406113,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                        Belarius

                        As for studying the Creation, I have done some of that and continue to do some of that, and what I have studied directly contradicts evolution.

                        But you admit to knowing almost nothing about evolution. The fact that you (a) routinely cite archaic variants of the theory (b) don't seem to know the central mechanisms that drive it and (c) have a casual understanding at best of the evidence suggests that you haven't done more than scratch the surface.

                        No offense, but I don't like evolutionary theory and therefore I'm not going to school myself in it.

                        You don't like it? This is a popularity context now? What you've done is learned just enough to think you've got your bases covered (but not enough to accurately describe the phenomenon or the evidence) and dismissed it because it's doctrinally inconvenient. It's unclear to me whether this is more a factor of laziness or arrogance, but either way, it's a huge presumption. Look to your own scripture if you doubt the risks of assuming you have all the answers:

                        "Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up."

                        {"commentId":1406113,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                        • 10 votes
                        #11.52 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:08 AM EST
                        {"commentId":1407364,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                        Jack Huang

                        I would never give someone a pass for insulting the LDS Church without a real argument, but then you go ahead and do just that.

                        While you understood the literal meaning of my quoted remark, you misunderstood its purpose: my quoted remark uses your behavior toward science, and turns it against Mormonism.

                        Like you said, you wouldn't stand for it when turned against LDS, so why so glibly use such "thinking" to thumb your nose at science? I'd hate to think that it's because you're so self-centered that you not only care nothing about truth, but harbor not an iota of consideration for any other ideas. But, as far as I can tell, that's the most likely explanation. Feel free to show me the error of my ways.

                        Logic would have me believe that you really don't care about me insulting science; you just want an excuse to insult religion.

                        If I wished to look for "excuses," I have plenty to choose from outside of your dogmatic ignorance, boy.

                        Just as I won't study the Qur'an "just in case" I'm not going to study books on evolution "just in case."

                        Just in case you're wrong? Yeah, I don't ever bother exploring corrections to my worldview. In fact, like you, I actively shun them.

                        No offense, but I don't like evolutionary theory and therefore I'm not going to school myself in it.

                        Again, the philosophy of the judgmental ostrich: sticking your head in the sand while proclaiming the unknown to be utter crap. What if I used your thought process against, oh I don't know, LDS? "No, offense, but I don't like Mormonism and therefore I'm not going to school myself in it... but it totally sucks balls."

                        {"commentId":1407364,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                        • 6 votes
                        #11.53 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:59 PM EST
                        {"commentId":1407419,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                        TJ Thompson

                        Belarius,
                        Ah, but pride in myself is not the same as pride in my God. He has declared that He created all creatures in their own flesh and that they act independently in the spheres in which they were created. This does not support evolutionary theory; it rejects the notion of one constantly changing an evolving flesh! Therefore, it is not my own wisdom that I am unwilling to let go of, but the word of the Creator Himself.

                        Jack Huang,
                        I understood perfectly that you were trying to use my attitude against me. But I don't believe that my dismissing evolution is the same thing. I know what I believe, so I don't need to look for alternative answers. If someone dismisses Mormonism because it goes against their beliefs, that is a different thing from dismissing it simply because of some peculiarity. If I was rejecting evolutionary theory without a contradictory belief already, that would also be different.

                        {"commentId":1407419,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                          #11.54 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:19 PM EST
                          {"commentId":1407538,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                          iarnuocon

                          Therefore, it is not my own wisdom that I am unwilling to let go of, but the word of the Creator Himself. God related this to you in person, did he? Otherwise, for all you know, he didn't "declare" anything. You just choose to believe the religious game of "telephone" transmitted God's supposed message to you accurately.

                          I know what I believe, so I don't need to look for alternative answers. Thankfully, not everyone has this same attitude, or we would still think illness is caused by bad smells, and that we can make the rain fall by sacrificing virgins.

                          You can believe God will stop a train for you, and refuse to look for alternative "answers", but when you're standing on the track looking at the approaching light, the truth will out.

                          {"commentId":1407538,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                          • 8 votes
                          #11.55 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:58 PM EST
                          {"commentId":1407633,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                          TJ Thompson

                          I believe that the window of revelation is not shut, unlike most Christians, and when it all matches up -- the word of God yesterday and the word of God today -- you bet I'm confident that its true.

                          And the global warming scientists are open to alternative answers, too. Oh, no, wait, they're Al Gore junkies.

                          And those who never walk the train tracks to begin with remain safe regardless.

                          {"commentId":1407633,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                          • 1 vote
                          #11.56 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:25 PM EST
                          {"commentId":1409101,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                          Belarius

                          Ah, but pride in myself is not the same as pride in my God.

                          You are human, and therefore imperfect. Your understanding of God is necessarily imperfect, because you are not omniscient. Therefore, asserting with total certainty that you know God's true nature or intent is the height of arrogance: it is asserting that you are either omniscient, or may as well be.

                          Pride is pride: it's a deadly sin for a very good reason: it allows men to do and think utter falsehoods with a smile on their face. Humility, on the other hand, is a virtue because it embodies the recognition that even good people make mistakes and can believe wrongly.

                          He has declared that He created all creatures in their own flesh and that they act independently in the spheres in which they were created.

                          I can see more than one way to interpret this. "Act independently" seems more like an ascription of free will: animals and people are not telepathic, and must make their decisions based on perceptions: they are thus independent from one another. Furthermore, "created in their own flesh" could mean that all animals are strictly corporeal, governed by their internal programming (i.e. DNA).

                          This is a semantic game, of course - I don't believe the above possibility, becauseI don't see a need to resort to God at all, especially on the basis of a franchise written by (necessarily imperfect) humans and mistranslated/mistranscribed over the millennia. My point is that what your scripture means is up for grabs: it can be (and has been) interpreted different ways. So even if you believe it's Gods message, you must admit that it is God's message necessarily conveyed through the imperfect vehicle of language (for proof that language is necessarily imperfect, I point you to Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid).

                          Therefore, it is not my own wisdom that I am unwilling to let go of, but the word of the Creator Himself.

                          You have not spoken to God. You have, at best, read words God spoke to another man years ago and (in his imperfection) can only have approximated. Or perhaps the words you revere are not God's true will at all: perhaps John Smith was tempted by the Devil (or, if we want to get Binsfeld-specific, Lucifer). Or, it could be that reality if even more different, and Hindus (or atheists, or Raelians) have it right.

                          Without the doubt of humility, you could be whistling all the way to Hell. Or all the way to a death after which there is no afterlife. Until you admit to yourself that you can't know for sure, you will never ask the questions needed to really understand the world around you.

                          This is the thing you haven't fully understood: the essence of science is doubt. Many people who love the themes and results of science treat it in a doctrinal way: these people are, at best, bad sciensts and at worst are scientific positivists (briefly "the worship of inexorable progress") and not scientists at all. I hold no water for those people: those who take evolution on faith often know as little about it as you admit to, and have the details just as incorrect.

                          Real science requires constantly challenging your own assumptions. I used to believe the dinosaurs were cold blooded - now new evidence suggests otherwise. I used to believe the sky was blue because it reflected the oceans - now I've learned about the refraction and absorption of light. Every day I learn new things, and I must put old idea to rest, even those I has grown fond of. This is the challenge of science.

                          For me, the idea of believing one thing and never questioning it is a kind of mental death, like senility. If my mind becomes that rigid, just put me in a rest home where I can't do any harm.

                          {"commentId":1409101,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                          • 11 votes
                          #11.57 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:04 AM EST
                          {"commentId":1411165,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                          TJ Thompson

                          Belarius,
                          Firstly, it's Joseph Smith. John Smith is the guy from the Pocahontas story. LOL - common error.

                          Pride in God is an appendage of humility if you ask me. What a better attitude could possibly exist than intellectually deciding to believe all that God has revealed whether or not it fits your perception of things? To allow your opinion to be swallowed up by prophetic revelation; now that is a fine example of humility. Men make mistakes, but whom God calls he qualifies for the job, and I don't believe that any translation of scripture ordained of God and done with the spirit of revelation and notice of divine intervention can at all be a mistranslation. Language is limited in what it can portray, and some languages can portray ideas that others cannot. That does not make the words incorrect; it just means that you have some extra work at hand to find it all out. The Hebrew language contains many of these "hidden" meanings that actually uphold LDS doctrine, such as the use of Eloheim to imply a plurality of Gods, and the distinction of the King James Bible between "Lord" and "LORD" is a fascinating concept. Scripture has so much meaning that religion has largely ignored over the past many centuries, and it is nice to have the truth restored to what Christianity was about long ago.

                          How does this connect to the discussion at hand? Well, I suppose it is a crude explanation of why I don't have doubt in my own beliefs. When you believe in continuing revelation, that the windows of heaven are not shut, then you begin to have confidence in what you are taught, because today's prophet tells you the same things that yesterday's prophet said. And it all combines to become one consistent set of doctrines. An intent of doubt is not compatible with humble worship.

                          {"commentId":1411165,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                            #11.58 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:36 PM EST
                            {"commentId":1411436,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                            Belarius

                            Firstly, it's Joseph Smith.

                            Apologies. It was late and I was tired.

                            Men make mistakes, but whom God calls he qualifies for the job, and I don't believe that any translation of scripture ordained of God and done with the spirit of revelation and notice of divine intervention can at all be a mistranslation.

                            But herein you've made an assumption, which is that the scripture itself is ordained by God. On whose authority do you draw this conclusion? On God's? After all, Christians themselves admit that falsehood may wear the vestments of truth (hence the whole "Antichrist" business). The divinity of the Bible ultimately rests on assertions made in the Bible. And if parts of the Bible are incorrect (as seems inevitable as a consequence of being a product of mortal men), then treating it literally as God's word is highly problematic.

                            Language is limited in what it can portray, and some languages can portray ideas that others cannot.

                            The problem is actually deeper than that, by virtue of what are called the "incompleteness theorems." It is flatly impossible for language to convey pure Truth. Language is always an approximation, even in the worlds of pure logic and mathematics. This counterintuitive conclusion makes doctrinal faith difficult, since any doctrine is necessarily questionable.

                            Skepticism and science, on the other hand, do not suffer from this problem: science is founded on the premise of falsifiability. In other words, science can't prove things, but rather can disprove things. It's a deductive exercise, and science always moves forward aware of its imperfections. The space where science and religion are compatible is to use science to explore physical reality (where falsifiability is possible) and to rely on faith for questions that are not answerable by science (examples include the existence of God and of an afterlife). The notion that "religion and science are incompatible" or even more absurdly that "science is just another religion" are articulated almost exclusively by people whose beliefs are testable and at odds with the evidence.

                            How does this connect to the discussion at hand?

                            It relates your your absolute belief in the righteousness of your own doctrine, a doctrine for which you depend on other imperfect men to define. I have no animosity with religion itself (the love of my life is a believer, even though I am not), but when someone tells me that they refuse to explore both sides of the issue despite having considerable ignorance of one side, they lose the moral high ground. That kind of attitude is both lazy and dangerous, because it's the kind of credulity that makes a person an easy mark.

                            When you believe in continuing revelation, that the windows of heaven are not shut, then you begin to have confidence in what you are taught, because today's prophet tells you the same things that yesterday's prophet said. And it all combines to become one consistent set of doctrines. An intent of doubt is not compatible with humble worship.

                            Achieving a consistent set of doctrines is easy if you turn your back on the evidence. It's easy to believe that the Earth is flat, or that a plague is a curse from God, or that one race of men is inferior to another. People have done it for thousands of years and some still do today. When your doctrine is at odds with the best evidence available, you are turning your back on reality, in effect denying it. Doing so because of a book your parents told you was special is dangerous.

                            {"commentId":1411436,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                            • 8 votes
                            #11.59 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:53 PM EST
                            {"commentId":1411995,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                            mee

                            Belarius, reading your posts have been most enlightening.

                            And TJ Thompson, attacking something you don't understand is to your own downfall.
                            You don't want to study a subject because you have preconceived notions that you already disagree with it? I'm sorry to hear that you like remaining ignorant.

                            Hopefully, this will give you a better understanding of what science is, and why creationism isn't science.

                            {"commentId":1411995,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                            • 6 votes
                            #11.60 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:52 PM EST
                            {"commentId":1412513,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                            TJ Thompson

                            But I do not rely on only the Bible. There is other scripture available. They all uphold each other.

                            I believe that language is more powerful than you suggest. There are many things that language perhaps cannot describe now, but that is because of the crude form of language we are stuck with. I believe that the Adamic language was much more capable of conveying godly ideas than English, Spanish, or Chinese are, for example.

                            If I had 60 hours in a day, I might have time to explore more approaches to life's questions, but I am limited in my time and energy that I must choose what to study and what to leave for a later date or entirely disregard in mortality, at least. It should be of no offense to those in the science world that I choose to spend my free time studying matters of religious importance rather than scientific inquiry. The imperfections of men do not of necessity lead to imperfections in doctrine.

                            My parents, my parents, my parents. I do not rely on their beliefs to sustain mine. I know for myself why I believe what I believe, and I am grateful for the personal experiences I have had that justify my beliefs. I agree that it would be unfortunate to believe something simply because my parents told me I should, but that is not how it is. I am old enough to figure out what I should believe, and I have, and I need not worry that my beliefs are wrong because they are the only beliefs I will ever want to have.

                            {"commentId":1412513,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                              #11.61 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:01 AM EST
                              {"commentId":1412568,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                              mee

                              If I had 60 hours in a day, I might have time to explore more approaches to life's questions, but I am limited in my time and energy

                              Yes, but how much time have you spent on Newsvine attacking evolution. If you had spent that time learning, instead of attacking, how much more enlightened would you be?

                              {"commentId":1412568,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                              • 9 votes
                              #11.62 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:26 AM EST
                              {"commentId":1412624,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                              TJ Thompson

                              If I wasn't on Newsvine right now I'd be asleep....

                              {"commentId":1412624,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                #11.63 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:53 AM EST
                                {"commentId":1412703,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                Belarius

                                I believe that language is more powerful than you suggest.

                                Once again: read the book, then get back to me. The incompleteness theorems came a huge surprise to the great mathematical minds of the early 20th century, so it's not obvious or intuitive.

                                It should be of no offense to those in the science world that I choose to spend my free time studying matters of religious importance rather than scientific inquiry.

                                I don't mind: spend your time however you wish. A life devoted to faith can be an amazing thing. However, if you start a conversation about a topic (let's say, "evolution"), don't refuse to examine the evidence and say you know what you're talking about. You waltzed into this fracas, and with the sources we've suggested, you only have yourself to blame if you don't know what the evidence is.

                                My parents, my parents, my parents. I do not rely on their beliefs to sustain mine.

                                I believe it. You've spent this whole thread telling us you won't believe anyone's word but your own.

                                {"commentId":1412703,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                • 9 votes
                                #11.64 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:09 AM EST
                                {"commentId":1415764,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                TJ Thompson

                                I believe it. You've spent this whole thread telling us you won't believe anyone's word but your own.

                                I take that as a great compliment. I'm not sure if I should, but I do.

                                {"commentId":1415764,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                  #11.65 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:17 PM EST
                                  {"commentId":1416084,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                  mee

                                  you shouldn't...

                                  don't you take Joseph Smith's word for granted? Why do you believe he's telling the truth, with complete lack of evidence, while evolution, a theory that supported, if you bothered to research it properly, has plenty of evidence.

                                  What makes Joseph Smith 'better' (in your veiw) than science?

                                  {"commentId":1416084,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                  • 8 votes
                                  #11.66 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:56 PM EST
                                  {"commentId":1416113,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                  TJ Thompson

                                  Joseph Smith was and is a prophet. I believe that he has seen God the Father and Jesus the Christ. Evidence helps only the doubter, and even then perhaps not. Those with faith don't mind believing without any proof. That's the point of faith.

                                  I believe that we will all see, perhaps in this life or in the next, that science confirms the true Christian perspective.

                                  {"commentId":1416113,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                    #11.67 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:09 AM EST
                                    {"commentId":1416213,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                    mee

                                    Those with faith don't mind believing without any proof. That's the point of faith.

                                    That's all well and good, but for an outside observer...

                                    There is no difference between your faith and the faith of a Hindu (for example). What you believe is different, but that is simply a product of where and when you happened to be born. If your parent's were orthodox Jews, you would grow up believing that to accept Jesus as divine is blasphemous.

                                    MY point, is that, while I believe religious beliefs are inherently good, they are still subjective. So, from looking at the same evidence as a Mormon or a Hindu, two people will draw two very different conclusions based on their own culture.

                                    Two scientists looking upon the same set of data should, theoretically, draw similar conclusions, because it does not depend on their culture and upbringing.

                                    It is by this basis that I believe that making assumptions about the physical universe based on religious beliefs a wholly inadequate approach.

                                    And to refuse to accept the evidence of observation because it doesn't conform to religious beliefs is worst of all, in my mind.

                                    Because, for example, you and I can argue about the divinity of Jesus until the cows come home, but it won't get us anywhere and I have no interest in doing so. It is simply and ideological and doctrine-based difference in beliefs, and is not the basis on which we create theories about the universe.

                                    {"commentId":1416213,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                    • 5 votes
                                    #11.68 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:59 AM EST
                                    {"commentId":1416225,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                    TJ Thompson

                                    I think you are missing my point, however, that drawing conclusions about nature is part of certain religions. The teachings of certain churches have to do with nature. So refusing to draw such conclusions would be denying an entire faith. You cannot expect someone to choose only certain doctrines to believe, but to ignore any teaching to do with nature. For one without religion, that might seem viable, but I can assure you that it is not a logical solution. Either you accept the creeds or you don't.

                                    {"commentId":1416225,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                      #11.69 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:05 AM EST
                                      {"commentId":1416233,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                      mee

                                      Or accept that the doctrine is allegorical.

                                      It seems wiser to do that than reject evidence about the world that is based on observation.

                                      Or did God give eyes that purposefully deceive us?

                                      {"commentId":1416233,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                      • 4 votes
                                      #11.70 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:10 AM EST
                                      {"commentId":1416246,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                      TJ Thompson

                                      mee,
                                      It is not that simple. I have beliefs that are specifically taught to be literal. God didn't give us eyes that purposefully deceive us, no. But we are imperfect, and it is only natural that we should be unable to comprehend the evidence at times. Science is about reasonable doubt, right?

                                      {"commentId":1416246,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                        #11.71 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:19 AM EST
                                        {"commentId":1416301,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                        Jack Huang

                                        Those with faith don't mind believing without any proof. That's the point of faith.

                                        And apparently, don't mind throwing out the result of countless reams of evidence because it does not mesh with blind, insular, and unsupported faith.

                                        I have beliefs that are specifically taught to be literal.

                                        Who taught you that literalism? Why do you take their word as truth?

                                        Science is about reasonable doubt, right?

                                        Reason is not blind.

                                        {"commentId":1416301,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                        • 10 votes
                                        #11.72 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:03 AM EST
                                        {"commentId":1416660,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                        iarnuocon

                                        There is other scripture available. They all uphold each other.
                                        ...Evidence helps only the doubter, and even then perhaps not. Those with faith don't mind believing without any proof. That's the point of faith.
                                        ...The teachings of certain churches have to do with nature. So refusing to draw such conclusions would be denying an entire faith. You cannot expect someone to choose only certain doctrines to believe, but to ignore any teaching to do with nature.
                                        ...I have beliefs that are specifically taught to be literal. God didn't give us eyes that purposefully deceive us, no.

                                        So, faith is good-- better than evidence, in fact-- and where religious doctrine teaches about nature, we should accept doctrine over evidence. If doctrine teaches that something is to be taken literally, then it should be taken literally.

                                        Let me ask you, then, since you're making these blanket pronouncements-- by what method do you reconcile all these religious beliefs? Especially when they disagree on the details? Why isn't there one religion? Why doesn't history point to a consistent set of beliefs, arrived at by faith, down through the ages?

                                        {"commentId":1416660,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                        • 7 votes
                                        #11.73 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:54 AM EST
                                        {"commentId":1420021,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                        TJ Thompson

                                        I do not attempt to reconcile all religions because there is one true religion; the rest have fragments of the truth which have combined with false doctrine. History doesn't point to one consistent set of beliefs because corrupt men have perverted the truth so much over the years true religion was lost from the earth until the early 1800s when God again called a prophet to preside over His Church.

                                        My faith is not blind, Jack. I have seen miracles and believe. But I believed before the miracles, so their role is not as evidence but as a form of spiritual sustenance unique to any other.

                                        I take their word as truth because I believe that they are just men and women teaching me such doctrines. I believe that they have the right to revelation and within their offices and callings have the ability to call upon God to provide them with what they need to teach the truth.

                                        {"commentId":1420021,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                          #11.74 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:11 PM EST
                                          {"commentId":1420055,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                          spiffie

                                          I do not attempt to reconcile all religions because there is one true religion

                                          Well, now that that's settled….

                                          {"commentId":1420055,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                          • 7 votes
                                          #11.75 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:21 PM EST
                                          {"commentId":1420205,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                          iarnuocon

                                          I do not attempt to reconcile all religions because there is one true religion; the rest have fragments of the truth which have combined with false doctrine. History doesn't point to one consistent set of beliefs because corrupt men have perverted the truth so much over the years true religion was lost from the earth until the early 1800s when God again called a prophet to preside over His Church. Right. Because faith is such a great guide to reach "perfect knowledge". Except for everybody else's faith.

                                          When you understand why your latest post contradicts your earlier posts, you'll understand why I look at people who think "faith" is such a great guide and consider them quintessential bull@!$%#ters.

                                          I believe that they have the right to revelation and within their offices and callings have the ability to call upon God to provide them with what they need to teach the truth. And I believe that instead, he plays cruel jokes on them and laughs. I bet my faith in that is every bit as strong as your faith.

                                          {"commentId":1420205,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                          • 9 votes
                                          #11.76 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:32 AM EST
                                          {"commentId":1420257,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                          Jack Huang

                                          My faith is not blind, Jack. I have seen miracles and believe.

                                          Care to tell us about these divine miracles?

                                          I take their word as truth because I believe that they are just men and women teaching me such doctrines.

                                          You believe they're speaking Truth because... they're only human. If you can't see the absurdity of that statement, you really are a lost cause.

                                          {"commentId":1420257,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                          • 6 votes
                                          #11.77 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:55 AM EST
                                          {"commentId":1420279,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                          TJ Thompson

                                          iarnuocon, You could simply inform me of the contradiction....

                                          Jack, You are asking me to expound on sacred events in my life, in an unholy environment. I simply will not do that.

                                          I believe in continued revelation from God, the source of truth and light. People in tune with that spirit of revelation can speak truth they never knew they knew.

                                          {"commentId":1420279,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                            #11.78 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:06 AM EST
                                            {"commentId":1420308,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
                                            Brad Leclerc

                                            People in tune with that spirit of revelation can speak truth they never knew they knew.

                                            They also tend to be prime candidates for mental institutions....so I'm not sure how much of a good thing that is...

                                            {"commentId":1420308,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
                                            • 7 votes
                                            #11.79 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:22 AM EST
                                            {"commentId":1420313,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                            mee

                                            Jack, You are asking me to expound on sacred events in my life, in an unholy environment. I simply will not do that.

                                            how convenient

                                            {"commentId":1420313,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                            • 5 votes
                                            #11.80 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:24 AM EST
                                            Reply
                                            {"commentId":1394751,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                            mee

                                            Great article.. you may be interested in reading mine as well. Just wrote it

                                            More general than your points.

                                            {"commentId":1394751,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                            • 3 votes
                                            Reply#12 - Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:56 PM EST
                                            {"commentId":1395399,"authorDomain":"adventurebooks"}
                                            Robert Blevins - AB of Seattle

                                            Aliens happened along sometime far in the past. I mean, how could you resist a stop at a blue jewel hanging in space, right?

                                            Then they dropped in for a look, found Earth teeming with life, and tinkered a bit with some DNA, creating a few new forms.

                                            Sometimes they risk a visit back here once in a while...to see how their handiwork is going.

                                            (satire, sort of.)

                                            This explanation is actually MORE plausible than the biblical version. But don't knock the Bible too much, it was written by ancient folks who were doing what we're doing now: Just trying to explain their origins and existence. You can't blame them for trying.

                                            {"commentId":1395399,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"adventurebooks"}
                                            • 1 vote
                                            Reply#13 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:27 AM EST
                                            {"commentId":1401804,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                            TJ Thompson

                                            That explanation came straight from the guidebook of the Raelian movement, I think....

                                            {"commentId":1401804,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                            • 1 vote
                                            #13.1 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:31 PM EST
                                            {"commentId":1402055,"authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
                                            AdipicAcid

                                            Which has about as much proof going for it as any other Holy Book.

                                            {"commentId":1402055,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
                                            • 4 votes
                                            #13.2 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:36 PM EST
                                            {"commentId":1403301,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                            TJ Thompson

                                            Proof would never be enough for the unbeliever. I believe it is possible to be so convinced that the sky is green that even seeing a blue sky will not change one's mind.

                                            {"commentId":1403301,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                              #13.3 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:46 AM EST
                                              {"commentId":1403569,"authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
                                              AdipicAcid

                                              Look in the mirror and apply your own statement to your examination of the proof of evolution, Mr. Kettle.

                                              {"commentId":1403569,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"acidreflux"}
                                              • 6 votes
                                              #13.4 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:40 AM EST
                                              {"commentId":1404491,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                              Jack Huang

                                              Then they dropped in for a look, found Earth teeming with life, and tinkered a bit with some DNA, creating a few new forms.

                                              Sometimes they risk a visit back here once in a while...to see how their handiwork is going.

                                              No need for that. Gary Sinise went to them.

                                              TJ Thompson, you inadvertently added two extra letters in front of "believer." Don't worry, it's a common mistake.

                                              {"commentId":1404491,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                              • 3 votes
                                              #13.5 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:21 PM EST
                                              {"commentId":1405303,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                              TJ Thompson

                                              When the sky of evolutionary theory is so obviously blue, then I will concede. Right not it's some murky vomit-like color.

                                              {"commentId":1405303,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                #13.6 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:25 PM EST
                                                {"commentId":1405343,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                Jack Huang

                                                Right not it's some murky vomit-like color.

                                                Perhaps you wish to check your intellectual vision. Color-blindness is a common affliction.

                                                {"commentId":1405343,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                • 4 votes
                                                #13.7 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:42 PM EST
                                                {"commentId":1412012,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                mee

                                                When the sky of evolutionary theory is so obviously blue, then I will concede. Right not it's some murky vomit-like color.

                                                In an above post, you admit to not studying evolution and not knowing much about it.

                                                Yet here you claim that it is a "murky vomitlike color" which I assume means that you don't agree with the theory.

                                                How could you disagree with a theory that, by your own admissions, you know little about?

                                                Don't you see the hypocrisy in that? I wouldn't go around saying LDS doctrine is ridiculous, because I know little about it. Why would you do the same to evolutionary theory?

                                                {"commentId":1412012,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                • 6 votes
                                                #13.8 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:58 PM EST
                                                {"commentId":1412526,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                TJ Thompson

                                                You cannot, like your peers, hold religion and science to the same standard when you say that they are vastly different. From what I have been taught, I am not convinced that evolution is a correct theory. I would not at all be offended if you said that you are not convinced that the LDS Church is the true church based on what you know about it. But the difference is that if science is held to a higher standard of evidence, it also carries the greater burden of proving itself. I do not attempt to have LDS doctrine taught in public schools, but scientists do with their theory of evolution, so I expect them to clearly prove it.

                                                {"commentId":1412526,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                  #13.9 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:06 AM EST
                                                  {"commentId":1412574,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                  mee

                                                  Yet, by your own admission, you haven't studied it well enough to understand the arguments that show evolution to be a valid theory.

                                                  It seems obvious to me, what you have learned about evolution has been wholly inadequate, judging by your understanding of it.

                                                  {"commentId":1412574,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                  • 5 votes
                                                  #13.10 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:28 AM EST
                                                  {"commentId":1412575,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                  spiffie

                                                  Actually, school districts and school boards demand that schools teach science, because any school that didn't teach science would rapidly lose credibility as an educational institution. Science has proven itself so useful that parents generally demand their children receive a basic science education.

                                                  But once this demand has been put forward, it's important to keep what is science in science classes, and what isn't science out of science classes. The reason is that a class claiming to be a science class teaching non-science or pseudo-science is hardly a science class at all; it isn't meeting the actual demands being put forward.

                                                  You can doubt evolution all you want based on the philosophical objections you've been taught. And that's fine. And if you take a philosophy of science class at some point in the future, I hope you get an opportunity to raise those objections. But objecting to people insisting that science remain the sole purview of a class claiming to teach science is kind of silly.

                                                  {"commentId":1412575,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                  • 6 votes
                                                  #13.11 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:28 AM EST
                                                  {"commentId":1412625,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                  TJ Thompson

                                                  I don't consider evolutionary theory science, though. That's the problem.

                                                  {"commentId":1412625,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                    #13.12 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:54 AM EST
                                                    {"commentId":1412630,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                    spiffie

                                                    And what's the basis for this claim?

                                                    {"commentId":1412630,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                    • 3 votes
                                                    #13.13 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:58 AM EST
                                                    {"commentId":1412638,"authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
                                                    Brad Leclerc

                                                    I don't consider evolutionary theory science, though. That's the problem.

                                                    Thus proving you have not even attempted to learn about it. How can you not see the problem with arguing against something you do not have the slightest idea about? If you don't want to learn about evolution, fine, that would be up to you...but actually arguing against it's validity without any knowledge of the theory is just plain idiotic, and not only does a disservice to anyone attempting to discuss the issue with you, but also makes you seem WILLFULLY ignorant, and flaunting that ignorance as a good thing...which is not the best way to gain respect in a conversation based on rational thinking and scientific principles.

                                                    {"commentId":1412638,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Brad-Leclerc"}
                                                    • 6 votes
                                                    #13.14 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:04 AM EST
                                                    {"commentId":1412649,"authorDomain":"ombra"}
                                                    ombra

                                                    I don't consider evolutionary theory science, though. That's the problem.

                                                    You're right, that is a problem, but it's YOUR problem. You can believe the world is flat if you want or that you're actually Napoleon, and that would still be YOUR problem, not anyone else's. If you have no wish to try and discover how the world, as we know it, works, that is your option.

                                                    But be prepared to be considered an ill educated fool by many and that is a fact not a theory.

                                                    {"commentId":1412649,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"ombra"}
                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    #13.15 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:10 AM EST
                                                    {"commentId":1412655,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                    TJ Thompson

                                                    Wow, that comment got some science dudes angry. Oh no! Here comes Bill Nye the Science Guy with an ax! ...

                                                    {"commentId":1412655,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                      #13.16 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:16 AM EST
                                                      {"commentId":1412667,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                      spiffie

                                                      Not angry, necessarily, but frustrated yes.

                                                      Analogy time, and then I think I really am done. Let's assume that someone put down Mormonism to you. I'm sure it's happened. Let's assume that this person said something like, "Look, I don't care for Mormons because they're polygamists and racists." Now let's assume that you carefully point out that it's been generations since mainstream Mormons rejected polygamy, and that it's been decades since they resolved the racism issue. You point to church doctrine, online position papers by the Church, statements from recent Mormon Elders, etc.

                                                      Now assume your interlocutor says, "Well, it doesn't really matter. I've heard that they're polygamists and racists, and I still don't like them. They can say whatever they want, but I'm allowed my opinion." Would that be a fair assessment for a person to make? No, of course not. They're not basing their opinion on reality, but on some prejudiced "reality" they prefer, for whatever reason. That's would be (or should be) incredibly frustrating for you.

                                                      And so it is for us.

                                                      {"commentId":1412667,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                      • 6 votes
                                                      #13.17 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:28 AM EST
                                                      {"commentId":1412677,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                      TJ Thompson

                                                      Your point is well taken. However, I simply cannot accept evolution because it is incompatible with my religion as I understand it. Human evolution in particular is something I will not be able to reconcile with my religious beliefs. I do not see how it would be difficult to reconcile the notion that Mormons are not racist polygamists with any religious doctrine. I do not know why there is so much evidence to support evolution, but I cannot believe it. It is difficult to explain. I don't know if you understand why I cannot accept it, but I simply cannot. It would be against everything I believe about the nature of man, deity, and the power of creation.

                                                      {"commentId":1412677,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #13.18 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:37 AM EST
                                                      {"commentId":1412687,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                      spiffie

                                                      That's fine. But what you should realize is that you're objecting to evolution for a religious reason, not for any scientific reason. You need to recognize that it's kind of silly to assert, "Evolution isn't science," because you aren't making a scientific argument or basing your opinion on anything that could be using to include (or exclude) a particular idea in the realm of science.

                                                      So while it may be accurate to say, "In my opinion evolution is false," it's factually incorrect (based on the nature of your objections) to say, "Evolution isn't science."

                                                      {"commentId":1412687,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                      • 6 votes
                                                      #13.19 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:47 AM EST
                                                      {"commentId":1412697,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                      TJ Thompson

                                                      Well, I believe that science backs up truth and that truth is the doctrine I believe. So it only follows that I am skeptical of the "science" that backs up something contrary to what I believe to be truth. So while I cannot use science to disprove evolutionary theory, I believe that science can be used to disprove it. I believe that there must be some flaw in the interpretation of the data. This is why I have called it "bad science." I base that solely on the belief that science should disprove evolution.

                                                      {"commentId":1412697,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                        #13.20 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:57 AM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1412698,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                        vas

                                                        Man, do you NOT get science.

                                                        {"commentId":1412698,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                        • 10 votes
                                                        #13.21 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:00 AM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1412706,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                        spiffie

                                                        I recommend an introductory course in logic if you continue on to higher education. (Seriously, I recommend that everyone take a good intro course to logic, if you can. It's good stuff. If it were up to me, a basic course in logic would be mandated in our high school curricula.) Until then, you might want to read here.

                                                        {"commentId":1412706,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #13.22 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:19 AM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1412710,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                        Belarius

                                                        I do not attempt to have LDS doctrine taught in public schools, but scientists do with their theory of evolution, so I expect them to clearly prove it.

                                                        So, in other words, you invite us to prove it, but when we provide you with a variety of sources that cover our many arguments, you refuse to hear our case.

                                                        I simply cannot accept evolution because it is incompatible with my religion as I understand it.

                                                        So you finally admit that the evidence doesn't actually matter. We could hand you the world on a plate, and if deviated from the biblical account, you'd say, "sorry, not for me."

                                                        Well, I believe that science backs up truth and that truth is the doctrine I believe.

                                                        All this time you've been accusing science of being religious in nature, and the fact is that you're among the "science worshipers" who say "I love science" without actually knowing what science is. 'What you believe about science' is an especially amusing notion, since you overtly reject the scientific method. You're a fan of "science" which you have defined as "any finding that conveniently conforms to doctrine." You're only one step removed from "my car is powered by goblins."

                                                        So while I cannot use science to disprove evolutionary theory, I believe that science can be used to disprove it. I believe that there must be some flaw in the interpretation of the data. This is why I have called it "bad science." I base that solely on the belief that science should disprove evolution.

                                                        The cardinal sin of science is to assert what the evidence should show. To begin an scientific endeavor saying "this is what we're setting out to prove" is not science. It wasn't science when eugenicists set out to prove the superiority of the white or the rich, it wasn't science when Aristotle was arrested for saying the Earth moved, and it isn't science today when doctrine is used to drive the analysis.

                                                        I can see your rebuttal coming a mile away: "but aren't evolutionists setting out to prove evolution?" you may ask. The answer is: no. Darwin was highly reluctant to publish his initial findings because he knew he couldn't tell the whole story. Since, scientists have pursued not the finding they wanted, but the finding that fit with the data. To do otherwise is not and never has been science.

                                                        {"commentId":1412710,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                        • 12 votes
                                                        #13.23 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:25 AM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1414502,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                        Jack Huang

                                                        Well, I believe that science backs up truth and that truth is the doctrine I believe. So it only follows that I am skeptical of the "science" that backs up something contrary to what I believe to be truth.

                                                        OMFG, is this guy for real?!

                                                        I... no longer know how to talk sense into the kid.

                                                        Belarius, much kudos for having the patience to continue trying to reason to him.

                                                        {"commentId":1414502,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                        • 8 votes
                                                        #13.24 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:13 PM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1414554,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}
                                                        Sprydle

                                                        I'm tempted to believe that he's yanking everyones chains. His tagline states -

                                                        The good fight is still important: life, liberty, and the pursuit of property.

                                                        Consume, consume, consume and aquire. Property = happiness?

                                                        I certainly hope it is meant in jest, or this kid has a lot to learn.

                                                        {"commentId":1414554,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #13.25 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:29 PM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1414643,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                        mee

                                                        I think the "pursuit of property" is from the original Adam Smith line, who's ideas Jefferson heavily borrowed from.

                                                        {"commentId":1414643,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                        • 4 votes
                                                        #13.26 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:58 PM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1414666,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}
                                                        Sprydle

                                                        Thanks Mee, I didn't know that. So he is probably for real then. How sad.

                                                        {"commentId":1414666,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
                                                        • 5 votes
                                                        #13.27 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:06 PM EST
                                                        {"commentId":1415832,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                        TJ Thompson

                                                        LOL

                                                        {"commentId":1415832,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                          #13.28 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:38 PM EST
                                                          {"commentId":1416481,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                          vas

                                                          "Pursuit of property" is consistent for free-market worshipers and narcissistic-Libertarianism, but is completely antithetical to anyone who believes in the New Testament.

                                                          I have beliefs that are specifically taught to be literal.

                                                          Apparently by "specifically" you mean "cherry-picked". When the scripture admonishes those who seek wealth instead of God, there really is no room for metaphorical or allegorical interpretation as there is with Genesis:

                                                          Matthew 13:22: the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

                                                          Luke 16:13: No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. ["mammon" is Aramaic for "riches"]

                                                          And since you're Mormon:

                                                          D&C 11:7: Seek not for riches but for wisdom; and, behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.

                                                          D&C 78:5-6: That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

                                                          Seems to me you need to abandon your pursuit of property or that of God.

                                                          {"commentId":1416481,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                          • 7 votes
                                                          #13.29 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:55 AM EST
                                                          {"commentId":1420072,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                          TJ Thompson

                                                          Scriptures make clear that you cannot seek for riches first.

                                                          But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.
                                                          And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.
                                                          - Jacob 2:18-19

                                                          Obtaining property and finances and doing good with them is not "serving Mammon." Serving riches would be making them my priority, being loyal to means that bring me money rather than means that bring God glory.

                                                          The pursuit of property is not in and of itself in contrast to the teachings of God. After all, if the innkeeper had more property, there might have been room enough to house Mary, Joseph, and the Christ child. If an "empty nester" couple had more money, they might be able to retire earlier and go serve the Lord as couple missionaries earlier, if they believed that it was the right thing to do at that time. If I had more money, I might have been able to contribute more to victims of tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. Money and property can be used for great evil, but also for great good! Remember, it is the love of money that is the root of evil, not money in and of itself. The line is drawn when obtaining money and "things" is done to glorify men and not serve others. And serving one's family is still service -- the very best and most necessary kind! If every man watched over his family, the world would be very close to paradisaical, I believe. Earning money to provide comfortably for one's family is thus justified.

                                                          {"commentId":1420072,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                            #13.30 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:28 PM EST
                                                            {"commentId":1420274,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                            Jack Huang

                                                            For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

                                                            God's a freakin' commie!

                                                            After all, if the innkeeper had more property, there might have been room enough to house Mary, Joseph, and the Christ child.

                                                            Ah, but then we wouldn't have the story of the Bible as God made it, so it can be argued that God expressly prevented the innkeeper from gaining more property, and rewarded such lack of wealth by Christ's presence.

                                                            The line is drawn when obtaining money and "things" is done to glorify men and not serve others.

                                                            Like building colossal, hexagonal churches of man? God doesn't need such testosteronal overcompensations, for He and His son require no stone fortress for worship.

                                                            {"commentId":1420274,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                            • 5 votes
                                                            #13.31 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:02 AM EST
                                                            {"commentId":1420284,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                            Belarius

                                                            Earning money to provide comfortably for one's family is thus justified.

                                                            Apparently, comfort is relative. But then, when you're working for God, what's the harm in becoming obscenely wealthy on the side?

                                                            {"commentId":1420284,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                            • 6 votes
                                                            #13.32 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:08 AM EST
                                                            {"commentId":1420330,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                            TJ Thompson

                                                            Jack,

                                                            The Church practiced the Law of Consecration until the Saints were disobeying its precepts and the Law of Tithing was again instituted among men. This removal of a higher law for a lesser law is not unprecedented. Before the Mosaic Law was decreed, the Israelites were given the fulness of the gospel with all its higher commandments later introduced by Christ. The Law of Consecration lets individuals be stewards rather than owners of property. The United Order, as it was called, distributed property according to the needs and wants of the people. Not every want was answered with property, but there was enough to give people more than they simply needed for survival. The standard of living was quite good, and everyone was responsible for helping build up this mutual benefit. Satan is known for his ability to counterfeit truths; communism is a devilish invention, a counterfeit of the United Order.

                                                            The example of the innkeeper is one example. The others are not so subjective to scriptural interpretation. It is true that Christ was foreordained to live a life of humility, and a humble birth was consistent with the rest of His life. Though it was not part of the plan for Christ to be born in an inn, the observation that a more prosperous innkeeper could have done more good in times of overpopulation (i.e., tax time) is not negated.

                                                            The temples of the Lord are very sensible structures. They are made with the best because temples truly are Houses of the Lord. While temples are beautiful, they serve more than ornamental purposes. As for our meetinghouses, they are not as elaborate as temples, but they contain what we need to worship God. The Church has been free of any debt it could not immediately pay back on demand for the past century, since 1907. This is quite a wonderful accomplishment, I think. I am grateful for it. If the LDS Church was building temples for the worldly glory, President Gordon B. Hinckley would not have come to the conclusion that we needed to start building smaller temples in order to increase the number that we can have all over the earth. In contrast to cathedrals, LDS temples function in being proper places for certain ordinances. Meetinghouses are used every day for something or other. No building owned by the LDS Church is built for superficial purpose, but for function and worship. We have tall buildings in Salt Lake City full of grains and other food storage, for example. We build many things for many different purposes. The LDS Church owns canneries. The Church owns farms and ranches for food production. I think this shows the intent of the LDS Church to build different types of buildings for different purposes, intricate when sensible or industrial when sensible.

                                                            {"commentId":1420330,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                              #13.33 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:39 AM EST
                                                              {"commentId":1420509,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                              vas

                                                              TJ Thompson I have one last thing to say to you. It's hardly worth my time to say even that.

                                                              You have a predilection for spinning any scripture or experience to suit your needs. You don't seek truth. It's as plain as day to anyone not in your think.

                                                              I'm not sure why you participate on this forum at all.

                                                              {"commentId":1420509,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                              • 10 votes
                                                              #13.34 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:22 AM EST
                                                              {"commentId":1422124,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                              Jack Huang

                                                              The United Order, as it was called, distributed property according to the needs and wants of the people. Not every want was answered with property, but there was enough to give people more than they simply needed for survival. The standard of living was quite good, and everyone was responsible for helping build up this mutual benefit. Satan is known for his ability to counterfeit truths; communism is a devilish invention, a counterfeit of the United Order.

                                                              Wow, Satan is a very good counterfeiter, then, as the United Order sounds just like communism, to the point where it distinctly sounds more like communism than socialism.

                                                              Also, as Belarius points out, this United Order communism is hardly followed by all Mormons.

                                                              The temples of the Lord are very sensible structures. They are made with the best because temples truly are Houses of the Lord.

                                                              I was never aware that God needed big, white mansions.

                                                              While temples are beautiful, they serve more than ornamental purposes. As for our meetinghouses, they are not as elaborate as temples, but they contain what we need to worship God.

                                                              So, the simpler meetinghouses are also places of worship, but somehow not "Houses of the Lord." Are they the Halfway Houses of the Lord? I'm at a loss for what non-ornamental purpose your megatemples serve, if meetinghouses are quite suitable for worship.

                                                              The Church has been free of any debt it could not immediately pay back on demand for the past century, since 1907... We have tall buildings in Salt Lake City full of grains and other food storage, for example. We build many things for many different purposes. The LDS Church owns canneries... I think this shows the intent of the LDS Church to build different types of buildings for different purposes, intricate when sensible or industrial when sensible.

                                                              Translation: We don't take out second mortgages, and we totally build some actually useful buildings. Thus, our colossal temples are, in some magic way, useful by association, because they're like granaries of God.

                                                              {"commentId":1422124,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                              • 9 votes
                                                              #13.35 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:14 PM EST
                                                              {"commentId":1422369,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                              spiffie

                                                              You must have missed the comment downthread, Jack:

                                                              The nature of God is much more understandable than that. He has a tangible body of flesh and bones, and He has a residence in the universe just like any other corporeal entity.

                                                              See, so God needs a home where he can kick back and relax when he's in town. But he doesn't always like peeps just hanging around, so sometimes they have to hit the smaller hall to give God a bit of privacy. It's so simple!

                                                              {"commentId":1422369,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                              • 8 votes
                                                              #13.36 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:18 PM EST
                                                              {"commentId":1424083,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                              TJ Thompson

                                                              The Temple of Solomon was made of only the finest material. There is historical precedent all throughout the scriptures that temples were to be made of the finest materials. It shows sacrifice to build the Lord something with materials that would make your own dwelling place more pleasing to the eye. Salvationally important things happen in temples; they are places of refuge, reflection, and learning. It has been said that temples look like castles or palaces. Well, the most important buildings in all the kingdom of the Lord, the very Houses of the Lord, should be the very best we can offered. The Lord is our King.

                                                              {"commentId":1424083,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                #13.37 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:25 PM EST
                                                                {"commentId":1424651,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                Jack Huang

                                                                It shows sacrifice to build the Lord something with materials that would make your own dwelling place more pleasing to the eye.

                                                                The Mormons hardly live in shacks, kid.

                                                                Well, the most important buildings in all the kingdom of the Lord, the very Houses of the Lord, should be the very best we can offered. The Lord is our King.

                                                                On the flip side, a tall, white hexagon is the best you can offer? That guy in India built a skyscraper as his personal home! Surely you can at least bling out the Temple with stained-Swarovski windows or gold pillars. God deserves all the shiny stuff you can muster, wouldn't you agree?

                                                                So, for that... why don't you live in shacks surrounding a temple covered in gold and inlaid in platinum? The Great Hexagon of Worship occupies the uncomfortable and doctrinally unjustifiable ground between moderation and extreme "humility."

                                                                {"commentId":1424651,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                #13.38 - Fri Feb 1, 2008 2:19 AM EST
                                                                {"commentId":1428997,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                TJ Thompson

                                                                Jack,

                                                                They did in the 1800s. When they moved to a new town, they sometimes started work on the temple before building their own houses. That's sacrifice.

                                                                It's not about how shiny the building is. It's about building the House of the Lord so that it portrays the character of God. God is pure, peaceful, and glorious. I believe that this is why we build buildings that are usually white, why the temples are surrounded with flowering plants, trees, and green grass. This is why we treat the temples with such reverence. Pillars of gold would be shiny, no doubt, but I fear that they would distract from the meaning of the House of the Lord. The inside of the Las Vegas temple is very beautiful, but there isn't a thing there that distracts from the glory of God.

                                                                {"commentId":1428997,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                  #13.39 - Sat Feb 2, 2008 2:03 PM EST
                                                                  {"commentId":1429348,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                  Belarius

                                                                  They did in the 1800s. When they moved to a new town, they sometimes started work on the temple before building their own houses. That's sacrifice

                                                                  You seems to be implying that Mormons are growing hypocritical with the decades. I doubt, somehow, that you intended do so

                                                                  It's not about how shiny the building is. It's about building the House of the Lord so that it portrays the character of God. God is pure, peaceful, and glorious.

                                                                  Also, loaded.

                                                                  Pillars of gold would be shiny, no doubt, but I fear that they would distract from the meaning of the House of the Lord.

                                                                  Well, there is that distracting golden statue of Moroni, but everyone knows it's really just gold leaf, which isn't at odds with a humanitarian mission at all.

                                                                  The inside of the Las Vegas temple is very beautiful, but there isn't a thing there that distracts from the glory of God.

                                                                  So clearly, your position is that the $18 million dollars ($35 million adjusted for relative purchasing power) was better spent on a temple than, say, on the college education of thousands of Mormon children, or on other "good deed" projects.

                                                                  {"commentId":1429348,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                  • 7 votes
                                                                  #13.40 - Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:43 PM EST
                                                                  {"commentId":1430350,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                  Jack Huang

                                                                  God is pure, peaceful, and glorious

                                                                  A gold monument would be pure, peaceful (gold is inert), and glorious (gold is definitely quite glorious).

                                                                  Further, if you say that gold sullies the purity and peace of God, then I'm afraid that at least the Mormon Temple in Maryland would need extensive remodeling and redemption. All of its spires are covered in gold (or, at the very least, gold paint).

                                                                  Heck, the books that Smith claims to have found (and magically translated) were made of pure gold. Is that not evidence enough that the God of LDS absolutely loves gold?

                                                                  I believe that this is why we build buildings that are usually white, why the temples are surrounded with flowering plants, trees, and green grass. This is why we treat the temples with such reverence.

                                                                  Why aren't they bigger? Did your temples cross the magical threshold of "sufficiently glorious for God"? Where's the architectural definition of sufficient glory in LDS doctrine? Why aren't they taller? Why aren't they whiter? (They can definitely be made whiter.) Why aren't they more glorious?

                                                                  So clearly, your position is that the $18 million dollars ($35 million adjusted for relative purchasing power) was better spent on a temple than, say, on the college education of thousands of Mormon children, or on other "good deed" projects.

                                                                  Well, of course, because $35 million is the current valuation of God's ego.

                                                                  {"commentId":1430350,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                  • 7 votes
                                                                  #13.41 - Sun Feb 3, 2008 12:29 AM EST
                                                                  {"commentId":1443705,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                  TJ Thompson

                                                                  Certain ordinances must be performed in a temple. College education cannot save a soul. Some things are important, and some things are salvationally important. All must receive their ordinances to be saved in the celestial kingdom of God, but college education is not a mandatory prerequisite for salvation.

                                                                  I personally think that gold pillars would distract from the nature of temples. That's my own idea. I don't know of any official statement as to why temples aren't made of pure gold, but your attempt to equate the costs of temples to our devotion to God is rather silly, actually. And no, it is not hypocritical to have historically sacrificed so much for the building of temples when now we typically live a better standard of life than our Mormon forefathers. Times are different, and the expectations of sacrifice change, but the gospel and the spirit of sacrifice remain constant.

                                                                  {"commentId":1443705,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                    #13.42 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:08 AM EST
                                                                    {"commentId":1445470,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                    Jack Huang

                                                                    I personally think that gold pillars would distract from the nature of temples.

                                                                    What about gold walls? Why just pillars? Why not spires?

                                                                    but your attempt to equate the costs of temples to our devotion to God is rather silly, actually.

                                                                    Really? You said: It shows sacrifice to build the Lord something with materials that would make your own dwelling place more pleasing to the eye... Well, the most important buildings in all the kingdom of the Lord, the very Houses of the Lord, should be the very best we can offered.

                                                                    Further, you're the one who attempted to use "our temples are really blingy, and our houses are really crappy" as evidence of devotion.

                                                                    So again, $35 million is the best you can offer? What a sad state of affairs. Westminster Abbey was built over the course of 500 years, and a modern $35 million is the best you can offer?

                                                                    Times are different, and the expectations of sacrifice change

                                                                    God changes his edicts becuase you guys have more money? I didn't know that LDS doctrine underwent a Prosperity Revision.

                                                                    {"commentId":1445470,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                    #13.43 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:36 PM EST
                                                                    {"commentId":1450998,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                    TJ Thompson

                                                                    Jack,
                                                                    The Salt Lake Temple is glorious beauty on earth if I ever saw it. Still, it was built from huge blocks of stone. This was the best the Saints could offer then. The price is not directly proportional to the glorious nature of the temple. The drops of sweat spent in the building of the Salt Lake Temple is more of a sacrifice than gold walls could ever be in this day.

                                                                    For clarification purposes, I meant to write that the Houses of the Lord should "be the very best we can offer," not "the very best we can afford," which may or may not be what you think I meant there. If I were a horrible speller, I might want to spell afford like offered.

                                                                    Sacrifice is about meaning and intent. It is not sacrifice for the Church to buy gold walls and put them in the temples because it could be so easily done. The Church has enough to provide for that. The true sacrifice comes from the people around the world who use diplomacy to obtain the land and permission to build temples in countries with strict laws on religion. The sacrifice also comes from the members who give an honest tenth of all their increase, which funding is used in part to build temples. The true sacrifice also comes from the members who volunteer to clean the temple grounds and the inside rooms of the temple. The sacrifice used to be in the finances and the funding of the temple construction. Now, God expects us to still sacrifice, and the Church building temples does not prove the Saints' devotion to God. The funding is already there is vast supply. When God blessed His people with ease in some aspect, He expects that they find another aspect that is difficult and make their sacrifice there. This is the pattern of a God-fearing nation.

                                                                    {"commentId":1450998,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                      #13.44 - Sat Feb 9, 2008 12:22 AM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      {"commentId":1395417,"authorDomain":"RaMoNaD"}
                                                                      RaMoNaD

                                                                      Excellent article iarnuocon!! One of the best i have read on the subject and overall since I first came to newsvine. Thanks. :-)

                                                                      {"commentId":1395417,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"RaMoNaD"}
                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      Reply#14 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:12 AM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1396352,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                      space guy

                                                                      The problem that I have about this whole debate is that the intelligent design/creationism that is being argued against is from several hundred years ago. It is a stupidly put together theory, just as the four elements that formed the basis of Greek science are stupid to us today.

                                                                      As a Christian and as a physicist, I have no problem with the universe being several billion years old, or that dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago. There is no conflict between this and the bible, none, nada, zip.

                                                                      So to me the whole argument made in this article is irrelevant, it is like arguing about the validity of Greek science.

                                                                      {"commentId":1396352,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                      Reply#15 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:33 AM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1396375,"authorDomain":"brianford"}
                                                                      Brian Ford

                                                                      Except, you don't see many proponents of Greek science these days, nor do you see straight-faced attempts to teach outdated Greek science in place of currently accepted science.

                                                                      {"commentId":1396375,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"brianford"}
                                                                      • 9 votes
                                                                      #15.1 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:39 AM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1396388,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                      space guy

                                                                      Oh actually there are, they just don't raise the same level of passion that this subject does.

                                                                      {"commentId":1396388,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                      #15.2 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:44 AM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1398748,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                      foolishgeorge

                                                                      Talking about how simplistic and unscientific Aristotelian physical science was serves my classes as a very welcome introduction to Newtonian mechanics. But I've never heard of anyone seriously arguing for teaching gravitas and levitas or peripatetic motion for that matter. Do you have some references?

                                                                      {"commentId":1398748,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #15.3 - Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:10 PM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1399732,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                      space guy

                                                                      Probably not. I used to live in Topanga Canyon near LA and there was a group there that advocated that the four elements better described reality than our materialistic chemistry.

                                                                      {"commentId":1399732,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                      #15.4 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:39 AM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1400696,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                      spiffie

                                                                      near LA

                                                                      Doesn't that really say it all?

                                                                      {"commentId":1400696,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                      #15.5 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:37 PM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1404507,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                      Jack Huang

                                                                      Probably not. I used to live in Topanga Canyon near LA and there was a group there that advocated that the four elements better described reality than our materialistic chemistry.

                                                                      The Western four elements are inadequate for such a thing. You need the five Chinese elements, because you can't explain the Universe without using wood.

                                                                      {"commentId":1404507,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                      #15.6 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:25 PM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1404722,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                      spiffie

                                                                      You certainly can't explain procreation without it.

                                                                      {"commentId":1404722,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                      #15.7 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:50 PM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1404779,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                      foolishgeorge

                                                                      If paper beats rock and rock beats scissors, what does wood beat?

                                                                      Notice I did not phrase the question the other way 'round!

                                                                      {"commentId":1404779,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #15.8 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:22 PM EST
                                                                      {"commentId":1405366,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                      Jack Huang

                                                                      In Soviet Russia, wood beat YOU!

                                                                      {"commentId":1405366,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                      #15.9 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:50 PM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      {"commentId":1398531,"authorDomain":"tedxfiles"}
                                                                      tedxfilesDeleted
                                                                      {"commentId":1401810,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                      TJ Thompson

                                                                      A ways up there someone mentioned Greek science. Well, how scientific was Greek science if it has been disproved? Perhaps we ought to treat modern scientific beliefs with a bit of caution, then. I bet the Greeks thought that their science was just as infallible as we believe ours is. Don't be so egocentric to suppose that our methods are perfect when history has proved that scientific inquiry is never perfect with human administration.

                                                                      {"commentId":1401810,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                        Reply#17 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:33 PM EST
                                                                        {"commentId":1401974,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                        iarnuocon

                                                                        Somebody needs to read Adam Kemp's article on why science never proves anything.

                                                                        {"commentId":1401974,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                        • 6 votes
                                                                        #17.1 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:12 PM EST
                                                                        {"commentId":1402198,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                        space guy

                                                                        As physicist I am absolutely convinced that our physics is wrong. Wrong in the sense of incomplete. My Quantum Mechanics textbook in college had the following statement in it:

                                                                        "Anyone who tells you that they fully understand Quantum Mechanics, does not fully understand Quantum Mechanics"

                                                                        We still don't have a unified field theory. We still don't even have a clear unification of the theory of relativity and Quantum Mechanics. We have zero understanding of the structure of a particle that goes faster than the speed of light or has a wavelength shorter than the Plank limit.

                                                                        All of that being said, it is still better than what we had before.

                                                                        Science tells us the how of the universe. Religion tells us the why.

                                                                        {"commentId":1402198,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                        #17.2 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:18 PM EST
                                                                        {"commentId":1402258,"authorDomain":"brianford"}
                                                                        Brian Ford

                                                                        Religion tells us the why.

                                                                        Some of us.

                                                                        {"commentId":1402258,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"brianford"}
                                                                        • 5 votes
                                                                        #17.3 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:34 PM EST
                                                                        {"commentId":1402457,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                        Belarius
                                                                        Religion tells us the why.

                                                                        Some of us.

                                                                        Many of us without religion don't think there is a "why" as such, so I'm willing to say it's an accurate statement.

                                                                        {"commentId":1402457,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                        • 7 votes
                                                                        #17.4 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:38 PM EST
                                                                        {"commentId":1402552,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                        foolishgeorge

                                                                        am absolutely convinced that our physics is wrong. Wrong in the sense of incomplete.

                                                                        I can't agree with the categorization of wrong and incomplete in the same sense. Incomplete means that there are more things to work out, more data points to collect and verify. That is normal. Wrong, on the other hand, means something completely different. I would be wrong if I said that red light and violet light quanta contained the same energies. I would be wrong if I thought I had measured the rest mass of a photon. I would be wrong if I thought protons were electrons and vice versa.

                                                                        We still don't have a unified field theory. We still don't even have a clear unification of the theory of relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

                                                                        And that is why these are still interesting times. However, I know that special relativity still works because I can count muons that appear to live longer than their rest-frame half lives. I know that general relativity still works because the clocks in GPS satellites still tick too fast due to the weaker gravitational field at their orbit. And I know that quantum mechanics, however incomplete and inscrutable, still works every time I turn on my computer's LCD display.

                                                                        The day these things stop working is the day I will substitute wrong for incomplete.

                                                                        {"commentId":1402552,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                        • 5 votes
                                                                        #17.5 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:12 PM EST
                                                                        {"commentId":1403187,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                        TJ Thompson

                                                                        True religion and true science are both truth. When religion and science contradict the other, one or both must be false. Religion and science are both tools to learn more about God, and how He works, and one must know the WHYs and the HOWs to know God completely. Until one knows God, he does not know his potential.

                                                                        {"commentId":1403187,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                          #17.6 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:16 AM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1403726,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                          space guy

                                                                          I can't agree with the categorization of wrong and incomplete in the same sense.

                                                                          First statement made by my Quantum Mechanics professor when we came into that class.

                                                                          "Everything that you have learned in physics up to now is wrong".

                                                                          Incomplete is wrong in the sense that it does not provide an accurate explanation of reality.

                                                                          {"commentId":1403726,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #17.7 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:06 AM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1404017,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                          mee

                                                                          But incomplete could just mean like Newtonian physics is incomplete. We didn't know about quantum mechanics for a long time, so netwonian physics was an incomplete model. It converged on being correct for the scale we were interested in, and served well for a couple hundred years.
                                                                          We still readily teach it even though we know it's "only" an approximation of quantum mechanics. It's still treated as completely correct, however.

                                                                          {"commentId":1404017,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #17.8 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:59 AM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1404062,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                          space guy

                                                                          It's still treated as completely correct, however.

                                                                          Not by anyone who calculates flyby trajectories for planetary missions.

                                                                          We are arguing here over semantics. I am telling you what is generally accepted by the scientific community.

                                                                          {"commentId":1404062,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #17.9 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:12 PM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1404093,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                          mee

                                                                          Yes, I know, that why I was talking about how for a certain scale, newtonian mechanics is completely useful and is still taught in every basic physics class. I agree though, it's a semantics argument and not incredibly useful.

                                                                          {"commentId":1404093,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #17.10 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:24 PM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1404518,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                          Jack Huang

                                                                          "Don't be so egocentric to suppose that our methods some religions are perfect when history has proved that scientific inquiry religious doctrine is never very far from perfect with human administration."

                                                                          We have zero understanding of the structure of a particle that goes faster than the speed of light or has a wavelength shorter than the Plank limit.

                                                                          Assuming they exist. ;-)

                                                                          {"commentId":1404518,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                          #17.11 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:29 PM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1404553,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                          foolishgeorge

                                                                          "Everything that you have learned in physics up to now is wrong".

                                                                          Yeah, I use that line in my classes, because its fun to see the shock effect it has. However, when I develop a more sophisticated treatment, I am careful to demonstrate how and where it is usually consistent with the prior results. Newtonian mechanics is not wrong, in the sense that I can calculate how far a fly ball will go, to a reasonable level of accuracy - and that is, to the level of accuracy required by measurement. I hardly need to invoke quantum mechanics or relativity at this scale.

                                                                          Another example from freshman physics (which I teach): Ampere's Law for Magnetic fields is not wrong; it is however, incomplete. It works in certain settings - and any more accurate means of calculating magnetic field density had better be consistent with it in those settings.

                                                                          Incomplete is wrong in the sense that it does not provide an accurate explanation of reality.

                                                                          Now that is semantics. Ever use the small angle approximation, sin x ~ x? Is it wrong when used for small angles? No, it is incomplete, because it does not include the higher order terms of the Taylor Series. But the period of a simple pendulum, for small angles, is still independent of displacement - a result that is obtained from this approximation.

                                                                          I'll give you an example of what I consider to be 'wrong': Investigating the Columbia disaster a few years back, G. Scott Hubbard, Ames Research Center's director, observed "people's intuitive sense of physics is sometimes way off." Hubbard supposed that since the chunk of foam was so light, "You don't feel this can do anything." Apparently his intuitive sense of physics missed the definition of kinetic energy and the relationship between work, energy, force and impulse. That's why we still need Newtonian mechanics concepts.

                                                                          {"commentId":1404553,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #17.12 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:44 PM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1404886,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                          space guy

                                                                          I don't disagree.

                                                                          {"commentId":1404886,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                          #17.13 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:10 PM EST
                                                                          {"commentId":1405311,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                          TJ Thompson

                                                                          Cute, Jack Huang. I am honored that my words are so easily transformed into an endorsement for the religion of science. I guess my IQ should go up a few points now.

                                                                          {"commentId":1405311,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                            #17.14 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:28 PM EST
                                                                            {"commentId":1405353,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                            Jack Huang

                                                                            I didn't mention anything about science. Reading comprehension is an oft-used and useful skill. As for me raising your IQ: if only.

                                                                            {"commentId":1405353,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                            #17.15 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:44 PM EST
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            {"commentId":1402775,"authorDomain":"RETLAW"}
                                                                            RETLAW

                                                                            Hey IARNUOCON
                                                                            You have done an amazing amount of research to for this article. I find myself totally agreeing with all your points---difficult to disagree with such good research and logical statements. Congratulations on such a fine article.

                                                                            But I have one problem that keeps coming back to me. The universe is here; of that, there is no doubt. All I want to know is: HOW DID IT GET HERE???

                                                                            While religion, as far as I can see, comes far from explaining it, science has no theories on how it came to be, either. I should also point out that neither entertains the concept of 'time' either.

                                                                            {"commentId":1402775,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"RETLAW"}
                                                                              Reply#18 - Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:01 PM EST
                                                                              {"commentId":1403109,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                              mee

                                                                              Your last comment is untrue however. The big bang theory states that time, which is 'merely' another dimension of the universe was created when the universe was created. In otherwords, time was created at the big bang...

                                                                              In that respect I suppose saying "before" the big bang is meaningless, because there was no time then.

                                                                              {"commentId":1403109,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                              #18.1 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:35 AM EST
                                                                              Reply
                                                                              {"commentId":1403714,"authorDomain":"RETLAW"}
                                                                              RETLAW

                                                                              mee
                                                                              Your point is taken. However, time may be measured from the 'big bang' (when T = zero) but we have no knowledge of before then. Presumably, something existed before the big bang. Otherwise, where did the matter in the universe come from. While current theory may suggest that time began with the big bang, it leaves no answer. And we all know, something cannot be created out of nothing.

                                                                              {"commentId":1403714,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"RETLAW"}
                                                                                Reply#19 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:02 AM EST
                                                                                {"commentId":1403740,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                                space guy

                                                                                Presumably, something existed before the big bang. Otherwise, where did the matter in the universe come from.

                                                                                There is no basis for that presumption. Many physicists have tried to address this with the cyclic universe theory and the "big crunch" that ends a universe but as of yet there is no evidence for that and the amount of matter in the universe is less than 10% of what is required to close the universe. Recent physics and astronomical observations that indicate that at extreme distances there is actually an acceleration component that further precludes ultimate contraction merely adds to the quandary.

                                                                                {"commentId":1403740,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #19.1 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:12 AM EST
                                                                                {"commentId":1403752,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                spiffie

                                                                                Many physicists have tried to address this with the cyclic universe theory and the "big crunch" that ends a universe

                                                                                Among other hypotheses.

                                                                                {"commentId":1403752,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #19.2 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:16 AM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                {"commentId":1404239,"authorDomain":"O-K"}
                                                                                O-K

                                                                                IARNUOCON
                                                                                Two points. I have not read all comments here so I may have missed some points.

                                                                                You point out many creationist theories but there are even more scientific theories of how we began. These multiple theories on both sides have no relation to whether one theory is true. I could pick any religious, or scientific, theory, and point out flaws n the specific theory. Both religion and science try to change their explanations to fit new knowledge. This isn't one sided. If I prove string theory is false, science still will not suddenly adopt a religious view.

                                                                                The ultimate question is whether the universe or life could happen without some outside force causing it to happen. This is the true either/or question. You can't use one wrong religious theory to disprove creation by Deity and you can't use one bad scientific theory to disprove natural existence. This is an open question.

                                                                                Science and religion are separate areas of knowledge and both are important and there is no reason why one should try to eliminate teaching of the other.

                                                                                {"commentId":1404239,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"O-K"}
                                                                                  Reply#20 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:22 PM EST
                                                                                  {"commentId":1404461,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                  Belarius

                                                                                  The ultimate question is whether the universe or life could happen without some outside force causing it to happen.

                                                                                  Actually, this is only a crucial point for the religious side of the argument. While the origins of life are a very interesting question, scientists concede that without a radical discovery (such as Earth-like bacteria found in an asteroid), we'll never really know what happened because no primary evidence survives from that era. The various theories of life's origins are essentially speculative. For the scientists engaged in this debate, the main issue is, regardless of how life started, did evolution occur afterward (and, in fact, is an inevitable result of how life and other systems work), and there is copious evidence to support this case.

                                                                                  The religious camp frequently fixates on both the origins of life and the Big Bang and assert that without knowing the truth about these "genesis events," science hasn't a leg to stand on. The scientists disagree, and happily point out that one can know quite a lot about the Earth's history without knowing how it started. What's at stake for science is that evolution is not only resoundingly supported by the evidence, but also has very important implications for applied fields like medicine and ecology, making it something they feel is crucial to teach the next generation. It is not the objective of most supporters of evolution to stamp out religion (since most don't see a conflict between science and religion) - most simply want to provide the next generation with the best science available.

                                                                                  {"commentId":1404461,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                                  #20.1 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:13 PM EST
                                                                                  {"commentId":1404533,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                  Jack Huang

                                                                                  but there are even more scientific theories of how we began.

                                                                                  Like what? Before you answer, specify the time scale of "how we began." I have no interest in a rehash of your baldfaced equivocations of evolution and the Big Bang.

                                                                                  I could pick any religious, or scientific, theory, and point out flaws n the specific theory.

                                                                                  Try your hand at quantum mechanics or evolution. Keep in mind that your assertions must stand the test of peer (our) review and scientific evidence.

                                                                                  Both religion and science try to change their explanations to fit new knowledge.

                                                                                  The difference is that science admits to and embraces this fact, yet religion tries to sweep it under the rug, pretending it knows Truth. (And to think that many religions teach something called "humility.")

                                                                                  You can't use one wrong religious theory to disprove creation by Deity and you can't use one bad scientific theory to disprove natural existence. This is an open question.

                                                                                  Unless you somehow verifiably observe God (rather difficult considering He's usually defined as outside the Universe), this is not just an open question, but an entirely unanswerable question.

                                                                                  {"commentId":1404533,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  #20.2 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:34 PM EST
                                                                                  {"commentId":1405321,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                  TJ Thompson

                                                                                  God is not outside the universe.

                                                                                  {"commentId":1405321,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                    #20.3 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:31 PM EST
                                                                                    {"commentId":1405355,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                    Jack Huang

                                                                                    Then how'd He create it and everything within it?

                                                                                    {"commentId":1405355,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                    • 6 votes
                                                                                    #20.4 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:45 PM EST
                                                                                    {"commentId":1412021,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                    mee

                                                                                    I don't know about LDS doctrine, but Judiasm teaches God exists outside the universe, inside it, between it. He also is both nothing and everything at the same time.. basically, being forced to communicate in language pretty much precludes the ability to understand God.

                                                                                    {"commentId":1412021,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    #20.5 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:01 PM EST
                                                                                    {"commentId":1412532,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                    TJ Thompson

                                                                                    mee,
                                                                                    That is an apostate doctrine. The nature of God is much more understandable than that. He has a tangible body of flesh and bones, and He has a residence in the universe just like any other corporeal entity. Any teaching to the contrary is false.

                                                                                    {"commentId":1412532,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                      #20.6 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:08 AM EST
                                                                                      {"commentId":1412579,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                      mee

                                                                                      so says your doctrine... but one's religious text has just as much proof as another one. I have learned that any text that proclaims Jesus as divine is false. Why is that inferior to your own beliefs?

                                                                                      There is no such problem in science. Either a theory is testable, and stands up under scrutiny or it does not... there is little room for faith and belief.

                                                                                      {"commentId":1412579,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                      • 3 votes
                                                                                      #20.7 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:31 AM EST
                                                                                      {"commentId":1412629,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                      TJ Thompson

                                                                                      It's not inferior necessarily, just wrong.

                                                                                      {"commentId":1412629,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                        #20.8 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:57 AM EST
                                                                                        {"commentId":1412712,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                        Belarius

                                                                                        He has a tangible body of flesh and bones, and He has a residence in the universe just like any other corporeal entity. Any teaching to the contrary is false.

                                                                                        You really need to have someone hold your hand and walk you through Godel, Escher Bach. Seriously. There's some critically important stuff in there about emulation.

                                                                                        {"commentId":1412712,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                        • 7 votes
                                                                                        #20.9 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:28 AM EST
                                                                                        {"commentId":1413472,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                        iarnuocon

                                                                                        It's not inferior necessarily, just wrong.

                                                                                        Sorry, "wrong" necessarily means "inferior." Yet another example where you are in dire need of an education.

                                                                                        {"commentId":1413472,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                        • 7 votes
                                                                                        #20.10 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:39 AM EST
                                                                                        {"commentId":1415841,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                        TJ Thompson

                                                                                        Okay, its inferior. I was trying to be kind.

                                                                                        {"commentId":1415841,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                          #20.11 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:41 PM EST
                                                                                          Reply
                                                                                          {"commentId":1404541,"authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                          Wheel

                                                                                          First of all, WOW!! What an article! I'm floored.

                                                                                          Second:

                                                                                          ...and an Adam and Eve complete with belly buttons.

                                                                                          I always wondered if god had a belly button?

                                                                                          {"commentId":1404541,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                          • 3 votes
                                                                                          Reply#21 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:39 PM EST
                                                                                          {"commentId":1405212,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                          TJ Thompson

                                                                                          God had parents, surely.

                                                                                          {"commentId":1405212,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                            #21.1 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:42 PM EST
                                                                                            {"commentId":1405289,"authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                            Wheel

                                                                                            Really?!?! Did they have navels?

                                                                                            {"commentId":1405289,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            #21.2 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:20 PM EST
                                                                                            {"commentId":1405316,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                            TJ Thompson

                                                                                            When has anything sprung into existence without a progenitor?

                                                                                            {"commentId":1405316,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #21.3 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:30 PM EST
                                                                                            {"commentId":1405360,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                            Jack Huang

                                                                                            When has anything sprung into existence without a progenitor?

                                                                                            So where'd God's parents come from? And their parents? And their parents? And their... ad infinitum.

                                                                                            As for navels, two important questions come to mind:
                                                                                            1. Were Adam and Eve's innies or outies?
                                                                                            2. Did they actually start with umbilical cords? If so, what were the cords connected to?

                                                                                            {"commentId":1405360,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                            • 6 votes
                                                                                            #21.4 - Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:48 PM EST
                                                                                            {"commentId":1405719,"authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                            Wheel

                                                                                            Were Adam and Eve's innies or outies?

                                                                                            His was an outie, hers' was an innie. That's why Lillith didn't work out, she was an outie too. :)

                                                                                            {"commentId":1405719,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                            #21.5 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:17 AM EST
                                                                                            {"commentId":1405849,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                            TJ Thompson

                                                                                            Jack,
                                                                                            Your attempt to comprehend eternity is impossible for the human mind, I believe. One day, perhaps, it will all make sense to us, after this life, of course.

                                                                                            Adam and Eve had parents, too, but they were not mortals assigned to this earth. The specifics are unknown, I believe, but why seek the answers to things that aren't salvationally important in lieu of those that are?

                                                                                            {"commentId":1405849,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                              #21.6 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:16 AM EST
                                                                                              {"commentId":1405877,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                              spiffie

                                                                                              "Hell, I don't know what happened. Let me hand wave until you convert!"

                                                                                              {"commentId":1405877,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                              • 6 votes
                                                                                              #21.7 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:33 AM EST
                                                                                              {"commentId":1405933,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                              Jack Huang

                                                                                              Ah yes, the good ol' "I don't know either, but I'm so totally right" argument.

                                                                                              The specifics are unknown, I believe, but why seek the answers to things that aren't salvationally important in lieu of those that are?

                                                                                              Multitasking can indeed be difficult for some. That "rub your tummy while patting your head" thing always trips me up.

                                                                                              {"commentId":1405933,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                              • 5 votes
                                                                                              #21.8 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:16 AM EST
                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                              {"commentId":1407841,"authorDomain":"RETLAW"}
                                                                                              RETLAW

                                                                                              Jack-I enjoy your comments above. Very interesting innies vs outies. I believe ole TJ is a very religious person. Good for him. It also works out well that he doesn't want to know anything that may result in him questioning his religion. My mother used to say "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up." But I became a scientist anyway. I've worked hard at understanding physics (I'm a geologist--its easier to understand) and still confused by theoretical physics. Several things I know: there is a universe, and I live in it; the universe is several times older than the earth, which is around 4-5 billion years old; AND no one ever got out of life alive !!

                                                                                              {"commentId":1407841,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"RETLAW"}
                                                                                              • 4 votes
                                                                                              Reply#22 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:53 PM EST
                                                                                              {"commentId":1407955,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                              TJ Thompson

                                                                                              And how do you KNOW those things? There is some debate over the age of the earth. Some estimates have the earth much younger than that. So basically, just admit that to some degree you have faith in one particular theory. If new evidence came out tomorrow that the earth was only 2 billion years old, would you consider it? Would you dismiss it as incorrect? How you respond to new theories shows how much faith you use to "know" something. I admit to using a lot of faith, but scientists won't admit to using any.

                                                                                              {"commentId":1407955,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                #22.1 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:45 PM EST
                                                                                                {"commentId":1407970,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                spiffie

                                                                                                Some estimates have the earth much younger than that.

                                                                                                What scientific estimates? Can you name one? Can you provide a link to one? This is like, "Some people say…," which is just an intellectually lazy way of saying whatever you want without having to back it up. Cite, cite, cite.

                                                                                                {"commentId":1407970,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                                #22.2 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:51 PM EST
                                                                                                {"commentId":1408018,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                                                foolishgeorge

                                                                                                a geologist--its easier to understand) and still confused by theoretical physics.

                                                                                                Retlaw, I was in the same boat. Thought I would major in physics until the going got really ugly, so I switched to earth sci. Thirty years later I'm teaching physics. Go figure.

                                                                                                If new evidence came out tomorrow that the earth was only 2 billion years old, would you consider it? Would you dismiss it as incorrect?

                                                                                                TJ, now you are thinking like a scientist! Consideration of evidence, woo-hoo! Some of this harangue is obviously starting to have an effect.

                                                                                                {"commentId":1408018,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                                #22.3 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:11 PM EST
                                                                                                {"commentId":1408026,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                TJ Thompson

                                                                                                Radiometric dating of rocks on the earth show much lower figures than radiometric dating of moon rocks or meteorite rocks. There is a bit of a struggle as to which figures are more relevant. There is general acceptance of the 4.54 billion years old estimation plus or minus 1%, but there are estimates based solely on materials from the earth that have the age significantly lower. The Canadian Shield, for example, has rocks that are estimated at 3.8 to 3.96 billion years old.

                                                                                                {"commentId":1408026,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                  #22.4 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:13 PM EST
                                                                                                  {"commentId":1408038,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                                                  space guy

                                                                                                  The difference is that there are no processes on the Moon to completely resurface its surface, therefore you should be able to find rocks that date back to the time near formation.

                                                                                                  We have dating from meteorites that are comparable in dates to the Moonrocks.

                                                                                                  TJ I am a christian and physicist and I have no problem at all with the current dating methodologies.

                                                                                                  {"commentId":1408038,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                                                  • 5 votes
                                                                                                  #22.5 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:17 PM EST
                                                                                                  {"commentId":1408060,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                  spiffie

                                                                                                  Also, you implied a difference as big as 2.5 billion years when you said, Some estimates have the earth much younger than that. So basically, just admit that to some degree you have faith in one particular theory. If new evidence came out tomorrow that the earth was only 2 billion years old, would you consider it? But now your only claiming a difference of perhaps 600 million years. That's a pretty big swing, so I would suggest in the future you be more careful about the implications, intended or not, of your rhetoric.

                                                                                                  And, as SG noted, the moon doesn't have the same geologic activity that Earth does (especially plate subduction) that continually change the face of the planet.

                                                                                                  {"commentId":1408060,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                  • 6 votes
                                                                                                  #22.6 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:23 PM EST
                                                                                                  {"commentId":1408109,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                  TJ Thompson

                                                                                                  space guy,
                                                                                                  I'm not casting stones at radiometric dating. I'm just mentioning that it isn't necessarily flawless, so as a brilliant scientist you should clearly be open to new methods and new estimates.

                                                                                                  spiffie,
                                                                                                  I did not imply that such evidence existed today; to the contrary: "If new evidence came out tomorrow that the earth was only 2 billion years old, would you consider it?" As scientists are always open to new findings, there is no way to say that such a finding will never arise, and if a particular study were to suggest such a finding, I want to know that scientists are open to the implications of a younger earth. I never implied that such evidence already existed, which is obvious when you note that my question was hypothetical, not reactionary to a convenient suggestion.

                                                                                                  The reason I asked this was to make the following simple point:
                                                                                                  If you are willing to accept new claims as truth, you cannot say that you ever KNEW that the past theory was true, as I have seen done here.
                                                                                                  If you are unwilling to accept new claims as truth, certainly you are using faith, and a lot of it, like I admit to with my religion.

                                                                                                  So basically, scientists cannot ever claim to KNOW something unless they (a) admit to using faith, or (b) have sufficient evidence to convince all the leading scientists and even some skeptics. This probably requires defining some sort of scientific law.

                                                                                                  {"commentId":1408109,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                    #22.7 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:33 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408578,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                                                    foolishgeorge

                                                                                                    I've been quiet as this thing spins in ever tightening circles, soon to disappear. But this is too much:

                                                                                                    If you are willing to accept new claims as truth, you cannot say that you ever KNEW that the past theory was true,

                                                                                                    That is an absolute circular tautology. But it precisely illustrates the distinction between a science and a faith. Scientific theories change, evolve, grow. Can a doctrinal faith make the same statement?

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408578,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                                                    • 5 votes
                                                                                                    #22.8 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:35 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408614,"authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
                                                                                                    badkungfu

                                                                                                    Oh, they change. They just don't admit they change. They're funny like that.

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408614,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                    #22.9 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:47 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408630,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                    spiffie

                                                                                                    Science doesn't ever KNOW absolutely, it gains knowledge incrementally. That doesn't mean that the prior knowledge was wrong, only incomplete. Let's use gravity for an example. Newton gave us the theory of universal gravitation, and it worked, and still works very well. Unfortunately, the theory was incomplete. It didn't deal very well with the universe in certain contexts, such as very high velocities. Einstein provided an answer to some of these problems with general relativity. This resolved the issue with high velocities, for one, but the theory is still incomplete (and we know it's incomplete) because it still breaks down in situations of extremely high gravity or on extremely small scales.

                                                                                                    Essentially, the theory originally worked well within a certain range of contexts, the contexts we're most familiar with, and in the scales we're most familiar with. Newton's theory still works very well in those contexts, and it's not "wrong" for those contexts. Einstein pushed back the edges; he extended the number of contexts that the theory could deal with. (In fact, Einstein's theory will reduce to Newton's in the original contexts under which Newton's theory worked well.) That doesn't mean that we've touched all the contexts possible, and no one is claiming this.

                                                                                                    If you're looking for absolute knowledge, if you want an answer that is black and white, science will never give this to you. That's not what science is or the kind of answers it deals in, especially at the extremes of our knowledge. And it never has been.

                                                                                                    So what good is science? It's still extremely good at answering questions within the contexts that it has explored. That's why we can launch artillery and satellites. It's why we can land a man on the moon and can use GPS locators to pinpoint our position on the globe. Right now we can't reconcile gravity with quantum mechanics, but that doesn't mean satellite launches will suddenly fail or that we can't fire a cannonball and predict where it will land. The theory is incomplete, but it's already producing answers that are reliable (within certain contexts and on certain scales).

                                                                                                    Evolution is not really any different. Darwin's original theory was not complete, but it could already generate useful predictions. Genetics shed more light on the mechanism of inheritance, population analysis techniques on how traits flow among and between groups, and the new synthesis brought it all together. Each step extends our understanding, allowing us to apply the basic ideas to new contexts and on new scales which previously could not be analyzed. That never made Darwin wrong, and certainly Darwin himself understood that what he was putting forward was an incremental improvement itself, not The Final Answer.

                                                                                                    If you want TFA, you have to look elsewhere than science.

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408630,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                    • 8 votes
                                                                                                    #22.10 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:55 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408632,"authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
                                                                                                    badkungfu

                                                                                                    It is completely absurd to believe that learning from new facts is a sign of a problem. If only all of us could be happy with certain absolute truths handed down from our ancestors....well, then we'd be screwed. Say goodbye to modern medicine and every other convenience that each new discovery brings.

                                                                                                    But I know where TJ is coming from. He somehow has the impression that science claims to have all the answers; that anyone believes science is infallible. Only religion is so arrogant.

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408632,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
                                                                                                    • 6 votes
                                                                                                    #22.11 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:57 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408696,"authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                                                    space guy

                                                                                                    No, science can often be that way as well. Religion has no lock on that facet of character.

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408696,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"wingod"}
                                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                                    #22.12 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:18 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408716,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                    spiffie

                                                                                                    Scientists can, which is a bit different. :)

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1408716,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                    • 4 votes
                                                                                                    #22.13 - Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:25 PM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1409090,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                    Belarius

                                                                                                    And how do you KNOW those things? There is some debate over the age of the earth. Some estimates have the earth much younger than that. So basically, just admit that to some degree you have faith in one particular theory.

                                                                                                    Here's an overview of how to date the Earth, from radiometric dating to helioseismology. There's a lot of evidence that the Earth is over 4 billion years old, and a lot of evidence that the universe is far older.

                                                                                                    If new evidence came out tomorrow that the earth was only 2 billion years old, would you consider it? Would you dismiss it as incorrect? How you respond to new theories shows how much faith you use to "know" something.

                                                                                                    If such evidence were to emerge (though given the existence of Earth rocks older than 4 billion years, I'm unsure what the evidence might look like), science would have to consider it along with all the other evidence. Nothing in science is a matter of a single piece of evidence: it must take into account all of the evidence, and assess what the most parsimonious theory that takes it all into account it. We expand our knowledge of science by seeking out contradictions and trying to reform our models accordingly. As I've heard said many times, the sound of progress in science is not "Eureka." It's "That's funny..."

                                                                                                    A man of science is willing to admit he's wrong, provided you can build a stronger case that accounts for the evidence without resorting to magic. A man of faith will never admit he's wrong because he always resorts to magic.

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1409090,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                    • 7 votes
                                                                                                    #22.14 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:43 AM EST
                                                                                                    {"commentId":1411179,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                    TJ Thompson

                                                                                                    I am not saying that any scientist should claim to KNOW anything, but was responding to someone who said that they DID KNOW some stuff because of science. Of course, without knowledge there is either faith, doubt, or outright denial. If scientists promote a theory, I suppose that they do not deny it or doubt it, so what is left?

                                                                                                    {"commentId":1411179,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                      #22.15 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:39 PM EST
                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411240,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                      spiffie

                                                                                                      without knowledge there is either faith, doubt, or outright denial.

                                                                                                      Not so, because you assume there's only one kind of "knowledge." You seem to be of the opinion that unless you *know* something absolutely, then you don't really know it at all. But science is all about provisional knowledge. That is, knowledge that is known to be incomplete, but still useful for certain questions.

                                                                                                      Let's say you have an opaque bag full of 100 marbles, and you don't know their colors. You draw one marble, and it's red. You draw another marble, and it's red. You draw a third, a fourth, etc., until you've drawn a total of 25 marbles, and all have been red. Provisionally, understanding that you don't know the colors of the remaining 75 marbles, what is your guess for the color of the 26th marble drawn?

                                                                                                      There are two reasonable answers, but each approaches the problem differently.

                                                                                                      The first answer says, "I can't know, I don't know what the colors of the marbles in the bag are, or what their ratio is, or even if there's more than one color. I can't *know* at all." And this is true; you can't "know" in the absolute sense, first because you're lacking knowledge you need to make a decision, and second because even if you did know there were multiple colors in the bag, the random selection makes knowing the outcome ahead of time impossible.

                                                                                                      The second answer is (it should be obvious), "Red." The second answer is also reasonable, because you have 25 trials behind you. The probability is very small that there is another color represented significantly in the bag, because if there were (say 50-50 red and blue), the probability of choosing 25 red balls in a row is very small. It's not impossible, but it's not what you would expect by chance. Red is a relatively safe answer, even if it turns out the 26th ball drawn is blue.

                                                                                                      so what is left?

                                                                                                      This kind of provisional reasoning about events that either we don't have complete information about or events that involve random change (or both, most of the time) is what science is all about. We'll never have perfect knowledge, but we still want to make predictions about the natural world. We still want to launch satellites and fire cannonballs.

                                                                                                      Is this kind of provisional knowledge "faith, doubt, or outright denial?" I would argue no. Faith is belief in something in the absence of evidence. But we have evidence, even though we recognize its limitations. Is it doubt? We'll sure, but it's manageable doubt. There's always a niggling thought that maybe there's one blue marble in our bag, but we shouldn't be paralyzed by the possibility of drawing a blue marble. Is it outright denial? Absolutely not. It's outright denial to pretend that this kind of knowledge is useless or unreliable despite truly massive mounds of evidence to the contrary.

                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411240,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                      • 6 votes
                                                                                                      #22.16 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:57 PM EST
                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411316,"authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                                                      foolishgeorge

                                                                                                      Excellent analogy. You could also point out that it does not matter in what order the marbles are drawn. You have the same information from each draw. That, simple as it sounds, is a fundamental principle of Physics. One of the principles, supported by countless observations, that allows us to draw conclusions based on things observed at different times and different places.

                                                                                                      So the notion that there is some doubt about knowing something, as in

                                                                                                      someone who said that they DID KNOW some stuff because of science.

                                                                                                      is deeply ill founded.

                                                                                                      Suggestion, if you think you don't know something because of science: take a very large rock. Hold it high over your head. Let go, without moving out of the way. Repeat n times. As n increases toward infinity, you will begin to believe that you know something about the "theory" of gravity.

                                                                                                      Enjoy the experiment, as "the sole test of the validity of any idea is experiment."

                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411316,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"foolishgeorge"}
                                                                                                      • 6 votes
                                                                                                      #22.17 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:11 PM EST
                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411349,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                      vas

                                                                                                      Also, at some point it simply becomes a scientific fact that the bag is a bag of red marbles. From the article I link in a comment below:

                                                                                                      In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411349,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                                      #22.18 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:21 PM EST
                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411390,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                      spiffie

                                                                                                      My favorite Gould quote. :-)

                                                                                                      I should clarify one thing in the bag example. In the example, at some finite point we will run out of marbles, and then know for sure whether or not the bag contained only red marbles. So my analogy had limitations (but if it didn't, it would be an analogy, it would be a description of actual states).

                                                                                                      Science will never run out of marbles in its opaque bag; its bag is infinitely large and contains infinitely many marbles. But there is a point to be made that science has so far, out of this infinitely large bag, drawn overwhelmingly red marbles (thousands and thousands) and only a few other colors. And, as near as we can tell, the other colors that science has drawn are mostly related closely to red (say burgandy, magenta, maroon, and the like). Very, very few truly different colors have thus far shown up (no blues, no greens, no yellows).

                                                                                                      So even though we can't know for sure ever what the contents of the bag are, from what we've drawn so far we have a pretty good idea. We can certainly make predictions about our next draw, and expect to get a red marble virtually every time.

                                                                                                      {"commentId":1411390,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                      #22.19 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:34 PM EST
                                                                                                      {"commentId":1412558,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                      TJ Thompson

                                                                                                      And that is the difference between science and religion: science admits to being unable to provide "perfect knowledge," as you put it, but religion can provide that. Science is left to the devices of men, but religion allows for the details to be related by God. There is always some doubt that every marble is red, even if the doubt is small. Were there no doubt, you would be willing to stake you life on the appearance of a red marble every next trial. With religion, you can be left free of doubt that there is a color other than red in that bag. Usually men only have faith, so there is doubt, but eventually a perfect knowledge can be achieved, and there have been many honorable men willing to die for their beliefs. One might argue that because of that martyrdom, they had knowledge. I do not know anyone who would risk their life to defend a theory or belief they did not know for sure. I would stake my life on the law of gravity. I would stake my life on the knowledge that God exists, that Jesus Christ exists, that the Holy Ghost exists, and that they are three separate Beings. I would not, however, be willing to stake my life on evolutionary theory, climate change theory, or a red marble appearing next in the analogy.

                                                                                                      {"commentId":1412558,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                        #22.20 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:18 AM EST
                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412584,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                        mee

                                                                                                        fine... but if there is no heaven, than you'll just be decaying organic matter like everything else, while species keep evolving long after your gone.

                                                                                                        Just because you choose not to believe something will not stop it from occurring.

                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412584,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                                                        #22.21 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:33 AM EST
                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412588,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                        spiffie

                                                                                                        science admits to being unable to provide "perfect knowledge," as you put it, but religion can provide that.

                                                                                                        Religion claims to provide that. But there sure are a lot of claimants. It's a crowded field, this realm of perfect knowledge, with many, many conflicting and mutually exclusive claims of perfect knowledge. You claim yours is right, but you've offered (and can offer) no objective reason to suppose yours is right and another person's is wrong. You're welcome to try.

                                                                                                        I do not know anyone who would risk their life to defend a theory or belief they did not know for sure.

                                                                                                        Really? I know of several. Let's start with the astronauts, who risk their lives on the assumption that the trajectories entered into their flight computers are accurate, and based on sound theory. Let's move on to those who serve in Navy submarines, who assume that the calculations of underwater pressure vs. the hull strength of their submarine is based on sound theory. Let's also include anyone who lives near a nuclear plant, who trusts that nuclear theory is sound.

                                                                                                        There are literally millions of people (virtually the entire Western world, at some point or other) who risk their lives based on their trust in the soundness of scientific theories, from aero- and fluid-dynamics (airplanes, shipping) to the materials sciences (going up in a tall building) to mechanics (stopping an elevator before it splatters on the ground with you in it).

                                                                                                        Even you.

                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412588,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                        • 7 votes
                                                                                                        #22.22 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:37 AM EST
                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412597,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                        mee

                                                                                                        HEll, I can even make it simpler for you spiffie. We trust in our traffic engineers that our lights will turn red and green and right moments...

                                                                                                        This is based on psychology; game theory predicts that people will bother to stop at red lights in the first place, physics: studying the affects of traffic patterns, computers: to change the lights...

                                                                                                        Every one of us trusts these scientific theories daily.

                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412597,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                                                        #22.23 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:41 AM EST
                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412634,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                        TJ Thompson

                                                                                                        Those theories are proved on a daily basis. Evolution and even climate change would take too long to prove the theories. While maybe the aforementioned theories aren't technically "proven," I have enough evidence to consider them factual. I'm really not that doubtful of all science, just certain theories that I can't see working before my eyes.

                                                                                                        {"commentId":1412634,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                          #22.24 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:01 AM EST
                                                                                                          {"commentId":1412660,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                          spiffie

                                                                                                          But there are many theories you can't see working before your eyes. You can't see electrons whizzing around the nucleus of an atom. You can't see tectonic plates moving around the earth. You can't the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy. But I doubt you deny nuclear physics, geology, or galactic cosmology.

                                                                                                          You seem fixated on biological evolution for no particularly good reason, just because someone told you it "wasn't science." You've demonstrated no actual knowledge of the theory or its underpinnings. You've refused to actually look into the science for yourself.

                                                                                                          At this point, I doubt any further discussion will be productive. I've spent hundreds of words on you, but there's not really any point in even debating the matter with someone who won't even learn the basic terminology to form a basis for debate.

                                                                                                          See you around the 'Vine.

                                                                                                          {"commentId":1412660,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
                                                                                                          • 4 votes
                                                                                                          #22.25 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:22 AM EST
                                                                                                          {"commentId":1412664,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                          TJ Thompson

                                                                                                          I did not descend from an ape. I descended from human beings created by God. Any theory that says otherwise is not only wrong; it is stupid.

                                                                                                          {"commentId":1412664,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                            #22.26 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:25 AM EST
                                                                                                            {"commentId":1412692,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                            vas

                                                                                                            Any theory that says otherwise is not only wrong; it is stupid.

                                                                                                            So you're calling all the people who believe that the evidence points to a common ancestry with apes "stupid"? All those scientists who share responsibility for most of the great advances of the modern age? Maybe the the Pope is in need of an exorcism?

                                                                                                            With religion, you can be left free of doubt that there is a color other than red in that bag. Usually men only have faith, so there is doubt, but eventually a perfect knowledge can be achieved, and there have been many honorable men willing to die for their beliefs.

                                                                                                            You're "theology" is "interesting". The core of religion is faith, yet you dismiss it, claiming instead that there is something else higher. You're not going to get much agreement from most theologians and other religious leaders in the world, much less the non-religious here on this thread.

                                                                                                            Oh wait, I forget, there are a lot of people who march under the guise of religion and devotion to God, believing "a perfect knowledge can be achieved, and there have been many honorable men willing to die for their beliefs". We are at war with them.

                                                                                                            Or, more correctly, the American religious right and the neo-cons are at war with them. If it weren't for the absolutely murderous "collateral damage" to innocents in the line of fire, I would be content to stand aside and let Darwinian mechanisms eliminate the source of the problem.

                                                                                                            {"commentId":1412692,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                            • 6 votes
                                                                                                            #22.27 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:53 AM EST
                                                                                                            {"commentId":1412702,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                            TJ Thompson

                                                                                                            I'm calling the notion stupid, not the people. Nice try.

                                                                                                            I don't dismiss faith. When I refer to knowledge as "higher" than faith, I do so in a strictly chronological sense, noticing that one must have faith before knowledge can be achieved. Christ clearly taught that it was better to believe without signs or evidence than to rely on the signs or evidence for such profession of belief. It is not a sign of greater righteousness to be provided with evidence. I simply mean that knowledge must grow out of at least a small seedling of faith.

                                                                                                            Excellent rhetoric comparing me to Islamic extremists. Unfortunately for your weak argument, you equate self-inflicted suicidal expression of belief with true martyrdom, which requires victimization. Again: Terrorists kill themselves, but Judeo-Christian martyrs have historically been victimized.

                                                                                                            {"commentId":1412702,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                              #22.28 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:06 AM EST
                                                                                                              {"commentId":1413514,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                              iarnuocon

                                                                                                              Never read Murder in the Cathedral, eh? Somehow I'm not surprised. TJ, what you call "perfect knowledge" isn't "knowledge", it's conviction. You can have conviction without knowledge (and boy, do you).

                                                                                                              If your only offering is to continue to state that any theory which does not say that God created man is stupid, you will quickly find yourself on the outskirts of Newsvine looking in. I don't have time for those sorts of stupid discussions. If you're a religious zealot (and that would be hard to deny at this point) time spent arguing with you is wasted except as an exercise demonstrating why religion is dangerous (and makes people stupid).

                                                                                                              Here's proof: You've stated that when reality clashes with your religious convictions, obviously something must be wrong with reality. You're not going to waste any time trying to figure out what that might be, however, because you want to spend your time perfecting your convictions. If there's a conflict between your convictions and reality, obviously reality must change or be ignored.

                                                                                                              The details of the doctrines might be different, but despite your dissembling there isn't any difference between you and Islamic fundamentalists, in terms of the process of your belief. That may not sit well with you (and it shouldn't), but if it doesn't, the burden is on you to show exactly how your approach to attaining "perfect knowledge" differs in any real sense from theirs.

                                                                                                              You don't want to know about evolution? Awesome. Just don't come into a discussion about evolution and creationism thinking that your assertion that creationism is "right" because "God revealed it to me" carries any weight at all. We'll all politely nod, and make notes that you shouldn't be allowed near any complicated machinery.

                                                                                                              And might I suggest that at this point we all just acknowledge that TJ is an exemplary Christian, and move on.

                                                                                                              {"commentId":1413514,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                              • 11 votes
                                                                                                              #22.29 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:54 AM EST
                                                                                                              {"commentId":1413558,"authorDomain":"sprydle"}
                                                                                                              Sprydle

                                                                                                              Dunno about him being an exemplary Christian, but he sure has one @!$%# of a case of cognitive dissonance. Still the two are certainly not mutually exclusive.

                                                                                                              {"commentId":1413558,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sprydle"}
                                                                                                              • 5 votes
                                                                                                              #22.30 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:10 AM EST
                                                                                                              {"commentId":1415877,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                              TJ Thompson

                                                                                                              I don't know anyone whose beliefs and actions are perfectly in agreement. I guess we all suffer from that. Its part of human nature. You cannot honestly tell me that your actions are always justified by your beliefs.

                                                                                                              I don't know much about Islam, but I think it's a goal of the members of most religions to obtain perfect knowledge. There are lots of similarities between oranges and grapefruits, but that doesn't mean they taste the same.

                                                                                                              It is unfortunate that you believe that religious individuals must be intellectually inferior to people who look to science more. There are many types of intelligence, and what makes yours more important, noteworthy, or vital to the progress of society than mine? Academically, I do well, if I do say so myself. Science is my weakest subject, I would say, but big deal. A "B" is hardly a bad grade. ;)

                                                                                                              {"commentId":1415877,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                #22.31 - Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:50 PM EST
                                                                                                                {"commentId":1416094,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                mee

                                                                                                                religious individuals must be intellectually inferior to people who look to science more.

                                                                                                                No, this is not what were saying...

                                                                                                                and grades are not an indicator of intelligence. I would consider a person who works hard in the sciences (or any other subject) but fails of greater intelligence than someone who actively seeks ignorance, as you admittedly do.

                                                                                                                Do not fault our correct observations that fundamentalist religious types (who generally subscribe to creationist theories) most commonly conform to this.

                                                                                                                {"commentId":1416094,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                                                                #22.32 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:00 AM EST
                                                                                                                {"commentId":1416117,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                I do not "actively seek ignorance." I actively seek truth, which is not to be found in most components of or the central implication of evolutionary theory.

                                                                                                                {"commentId":1416117,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                  #22.33 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:13 AM EST
                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1416124,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                  Belarius

                                                                                                                  I don't know much about Islam, but I think it's a goal of the members of most religions to obtain perfect knowledge.

                                                                                                                  Here's the problem: "I don't know... but I think..." You don't seem to have any curiosity in you. You seem content to guess as whatever facts you don't have in front of you, and the boast with confidence about how confident you are.

                                                                                                                  If you don't know, what you think isn't relevant. If I said, "I don't know much about Mormons, but I think it's a goal of most Mormons to molest barnyard animals," you'd very rightly call foul: without having informed myself, I would have no basis for saying that. The fact that you've repeatedly and proudly refused to study the topic under debate is equally unimpressive.

                                                                                                                  Opinion without information is the very definition of ignorance, and is a hair's width away from bigotry and idolatry.

                                                                                                                  Academically, I do well, if I do say so myself. Science is my weakest subject, I would say, but big deal. A "B" is hardly a bad grade.

                                                                                                                  You haven't "done well" academically until you can demonstrate mastery of academic subjects. So far, you have demonstrated questionable (at best) knowledge of scientific topics. Most people would call memorization without understanding "faking it."

                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1416124,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                  • 9 votes
                                                                                                                  #22.34 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:17 AM EST
                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1416146,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                  TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                  Actually, I scored a 5 on both the calculus and US history AP tests and a 4 on both the English language and psychology tests. I do believe that says something to my credit. I only "fake it" with science -- especially my AP Bio class right now. Boy is that stuff hard!

                                                                                                                  My statement about the goal of religion was not dependent upon any assumption of Muslim doctrine. Knowing the significance of the veil worn over women's faces, for example, is not necessary to conclude that the goal of religion is to obtain perfect knowledge. Any religion that tells its followers that they can't help them find the answers to their tough questions is a religion that will not be very popular or influential.

                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1416146,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                    #22.35 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:25 AM EST
                                                                                                                    {"commentId":1416194,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                    Belarius

                                                                                                                    I only "fake it" with science

                                                                                                                    That's exactly what I'm saying. You haven't mastered science.

                                                                                                                    Any religion that tells its followers that they can't help them find the answers to their tough questions is a religion that will not be very popular or influential.

                                                                                                                    There's a big gap between "help with tough questions" and "perfect knowledge." Some religions (e.g. Buddhism) tell people that the answers to tough questions must come from within, and that perfect knowledge is impossible. This doesn't stop religions from also telling people how to deal with tough questions (in Buddhism's case, the answer is generally some variant on asceticism).

                                                                                                                    The obsession with perfection is common worldwide, and it is also dangerous. But it is not ubiquitous.

                                                                                                                    {"commentId":1416194,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                    • 8 votes
                                                                                                                    #22.36 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:49 AM EST
                                                                                                                    {"commentId":1416201,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                    TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                    Alright. Lesson learned. Note to self: some religions do not teach eventual perfection.

                                                                                                                    {"commentId":1416201,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                      #22.37 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:54 AM EST
                                                                                                                      {"commentId":1416224,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                      mee

                                                                                                                      I do not "actively seek ignorance." I actively seek truth, which is not to be found in most components of or the central implication of evolutionary theory.

                                                                                                                      Through your stated desire to not learn about evolution, you admit to wanting to remain ignorant about it.

                                                                                                                      If you remain ignorant than you don't have to risk admitting that the evidence fits the theory. Which means you would have to admit your religion preaches doctrine that is less than perfect.

                                                                                                                      By all means, go on pretending that evolutionary theory is inadequate, but don't delude yourself into thinking you are doing it in order to "seek the truth." If you were really interested in seeking truth, you would actively study ideas you did not agree with. If you truly do not believe that evolutionary theory is accurate, then studying it should only reaffirm your faith.

                                                                                                                      If your belief in God is that strong, you should have nothing to fear from studying evolution.

                                                                                                                      {"commentId":1416224,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                      • 5 votes
                                                                                                                      #22.38 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:04 AM EST
                                                                                                                      {"commentId":1416229,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                      TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                      I think you have missed my point that I will not ally myself with a theory that is contrary to my existing doctrinally-based beliefs. Science may be worth more to you than religion, but to me the opposite is true.

                                                                                                                      {"commentId":1416229,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                        #22.39 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:08 AM EST
                                                                                                                        {"commentId":1416236,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                        mee

                                                                                                                        I don't think science or religion has inherent worth. My religion and culture means more to me in some ways than science ever will, emotionally, for example.

                                                                                                                        I do know that science will not conform to religious doctrine simply because you will it to do so. That's illogical.

                                                                                                                        You reject observations that do not conform to your beliefs? How do explain away those observations, then?

                                                                                                                        {"commentId":1416236,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                        • 6 votes
                                                                                                                        #22.40 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:13 AM EST
                                                                                                                        {"commentId":1416249,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                        TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                        One observation can be the root for a dozen or more theories, and yet they may all be wrong together.

                                                                                                                        {"commentId":1416249,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                          #22.41 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:20 AM EST
                                                                                                                          {"commentId":1416258,"authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                          mee

                                                                                                                          yet, by not studying evolution, you'll never know for sure.

                                                                                                                          Your faith must not be very strong if you aren't willing to challenge your beliefs.

                                                                                                                          {"commentId":1416258,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rkurtz57"}
                                                                                                                          • 5 votes
                                                                                                                          #22.42 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:30 AM EST
                                                                                                                          {"commentId":1416308,"authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                                                          Jack Huang

                                                                                                                          I do not "actively seek ignorance." I actively seek truth, which is not to be found in most components of or the central implication of evolutionary theory.

                                                                                                                          You refuse to look at "most components of... evolutionary theory," so how do you know? Empty bluster, no matter how self-confident, is not knowledge or truth.

                                                                                                                          You do not actively seek truth. You believe you know truth, and actively tirelessly reinforce an armor of ignorance to protect that belief.

                                                                                                                          I think you have missed my point that I will not ally myself with a theory that is contrary to my existing doctrinally-based beliefs.

                                                                                                                          No, your point is that you will not even read about a theory that is contrary to your existing doctrinally-based beliefs.

                                                                                                                          But, your slip can be rather telling: Are you afraid that exploring evolution will make you ally yourself with it?

                                                                                                                          Fear has often been a powerful impetus for ignorance, and vice versa. It's a vicious cycle, and you seem hopelessly trapped.

                                                                                                                          {"commentId":1416308,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"sphinx"}
                                                                                                                          • 8 votes
                                                                                                                          #22.43 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:11 AM EST
                                                                                                                          {"commentId":1420092,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                          TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                          I wish you understood that I do not need to know every component part of the theory to know that I do not believe the major implications of the whole. I do not need to know the specifics about the fossil record, natural selection, anagensis, cladogensis, genetic drift, convergence, Darwin, Gould, or mutations to know that I am not the descendant of an ape.

                                                                                                                          No slip, Jack. Nice try. I consider it an alliance to spend a great portion of my time and energy studying out a theory that I believe to be false when I do not exert similar energy or spend similar time on topics of greater consequence to my well-being.

                                                                                                                          I'm not afraid of the implications of evolutionary theory. One day, we will all remember the truth of the matter.

                                                                                                                          {"commentId":1420092,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                            #22.44 - Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:37 PM EST
                                                                                                                            {"commentId":1420226,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                            iarnuocon

                                                                                                                            You haven't shown that you understand the major implications (and major arguments) of the theory, so whether you believe it or not is inconsequential. Your lack of belief serves to highlight your ignorance on the matter, which you trumpet as some sort of badge of honor. It doesn't make you honorable. It makes you misguided, and not a little bit pompous.

                                                                                                                            The fossil record, natural selection, anagensis, cladogensis, genetic drift, convergence, Darwin, Gould, et cetera, all say you ARE descended with apes from a common ancestor. Your counter-argument is that a con man from the 1800s wrote some stuff that convinced you that you aren't.

                                                                                                                            I know which side of the argument is the more reasonable.

                                                                                                                            I'm not afraid of the implications of evolutionary theory. One day, we will all remember the truth of the matter. Kid, you quite clearly are. It's evident in your combination of bluster and rationalization. Which makes it a bit pointless to continue discussing the issue with you. You're a die-hard creationist. Congratulations. Noted.

                                                                                                                            {"commentId":1420226,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                            • 9 votes
                                                                                                                            #22.45 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:42 AM EST
                                                                                                                            {"commentId":1420337,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                            TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                            You have no proof whatsoever that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. You are faithfully promoting that idea, though.

                                                                                                                            {"commentId":1420337,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                              #22.46 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:45 AM EST
                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1420349,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                              Belarius

                                                                                                                              You have no proof whatsoever that Joseph Smith was not a prophet.

                                                                                                                              You can't prove a negative. I can't prove that you're not a prophet, nor can you prove that I'm not. For all you know, I'm an avatar of Krishna come to instruct you in the rewards of bhakti. You merely assume I'm who I say I am.

                                                                                                                              Since when is "prove" a word you're willing to use? Doesn't "proof" require "evidence?" Isn't evidence something you've repeatedly told us you aren't willing to take into consideration?

                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1420349,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                              • 9 votes
                                                                                                                              #22.47 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:54 AM EST
                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1421009,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                              iarnuocon

                                                                                                                              You have no proof whatsoever that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. So the Second Coming of Christ happened in 1891, as Joseph Smith predicted?

                                                                                                                              President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182)

                                                                                                                              Prediction made in 1835. 1835 + 56 years = 1891... or does God do math a little differently, TJ?

                                                                                                                              God overthrew the government of the United States for the wrongs done to the Mormons?

                                                                                                                              Congress was broken up, and its members damned, and nothing is left but a grease spot? (I mean, honestly, a "grease spot"?)

                                                                                                                              The Mormons discovered God's secret treasure in Salem, Massachusetts , and paid off their debts with it, and God gave the city into their hands? 'Cause I'm noting a certain... lack... of Mormon control of Salem in its history.

                                                                                                                              The wicked of the US were all destroyed by hail, earhtquakes, famine and pestilence, and the faithful all gathered in Zion? (which, btw, happens to be in Missouri-- the Show Me state. Go on, show me. Incidentally, I know you know this, being a good Mormon, and all, but it might be informative to the others to know that the Mormons were forced to flee Missouri, and weren't even able to build their temple there, much less the whole city of New Jerusalem that Joseph Smith had predicted they would, until generations after Joe's death-- a little hiccup that ran completely opposite to his prophecy.)

                                                                                                                              (1)A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. (2)Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. (3)Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. (4)Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. (5)For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord...(D&C: Section 84:1-5)

                                                                                                                              You can prove someone isn't a prophet, Belarius-- all you have to do is show that their specific prophecies are specifically wrong. not that I expect TJ to accept that at face value. No doubt we'll hear some rationalizations about metaphor and allegory, and some other creative reworkings of Joe's words to make them "not incorrect." That's what faith does, allows continued belief in the face of evidence to the contrary. TJ has told us all about how believing even when you're wrong is good in the eyes of God, therefore reason and evidence need not apply.

                                                                                                                              But it might be instructional for us to all see it firsthand, TJ, so please proceed.

                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1421009,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                              • 11 votes
                                                                                                                              #22.48 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:40 AM EST
                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1421436,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                              Belarius

                                                                                                                              You can prove someone isn't a prophet, Belarius-- all you have to do is show that their specific prophecies are specifically wrong.

                                                                                                                              In an age where there are people still willing to take Nostradamus seriously, all a prophet needs to do to be unfalsifiable is to be incoherent. The magical power of metaphor can handle the rest. Consequently, applying tests of reason to the words of prophets is below even a talented rhetorician. Even trying to defuse prophecy (provided there's any ambiguity, which there usually is) is doomed to failure, because the believer can always backpedal and defend the same words by adopting a different interpretation.

                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1421436,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                              • 6 votes
                                                                                                                              #22.49 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:42 AM EST
                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1421506,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                              iarnuocon

                                                                                                                              Right, highlighting that the problem is in this idea that "belief" and "faith" can be "other paths to 'knowledge'." They can't, and aren't for specifically that reason.

                                                                                                                              Not that I expect TJ to understand that.

                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1421506,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                              • 6 votes
                                                                                                                              #22.50 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:59 AM EST
                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1424218,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                              TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                              Belarius, iarnuocon, and other interested parties:

                                                                                                                              "This morning, I read German, and visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that 'a prophet is always a prophet;' but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such." -- Joseph Smith, Feb. 8, 1843

                                                                                                                              I recommend this site, a great index of links on these matters of the so-called "false prophecies" of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

                                                                                                                              {"commentId":1424218,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                                #22.51 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:58 PM EST
                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1424302,"authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
                                                                                                                                badkungfu

                                                                                                                                So if he keeps making predictions, how do you know when he's a prophet? Hindsight?

                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1424302,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"rel3vant"}
                                                                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                                                                #22.52 - Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:23 PM EST
                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1424431,"authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                                iarnuocon

                                                                                                                                I rest my case.

                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1424431,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"iarnuocon"}
                                                                                                                                • 7 votes
                                                                                                                                #22.53 - Fri Feb 1, 2008 12:17 AM EST
                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1424553,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                                Belarius

                                                                                                                                Of course, then there's the things Smith said himself that didn't hold up...

                                                                                                                                Looks like Smith spent a fair bit of his time working non-prophet.

                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1424553,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                                • 8 votes
                                                                                                                                #22.54 - Fri Feb 1, 2008 1:13 AM EST
                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1429042,"authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                                TJ Thompson

                                                                                                                                If you spend equal time researching the exact wording of his prophecies, you would see that they haven't failed at all. For example, he told a young man that he would serve a mission. That man died not long after. The critics have used this as ammunition against the credibility of the Prophet Joseph Smith, but they have not paid attention to the doctrine. We believe that the Spirits in Paradise are missionaries to those in prison, which is Biblically supported by the three days that Jesus Christ spent in the spirit world between his death and resurrection, when he bridged the gap between spirit Paradise and spirit prison to allow the righteous to cross and teach the deniers and the unbelievers, and those who simply never had the opportunity to hear the gospel and choose for themselves whether to believe it or disbelieve it in mortality. So this man, we expect, was one of the righteous in Paradise who journeyed to spirit prison to teach; his mission was simply reserved for postmortality.

                                                                                                                                A more awesome example.

                                                                                                                                After you read the text on Stephen A. Douglas from that link, it will be of no surprise to you that Lilburn W. Boggs, who issued the Extermination Order against the Mormons in the state of Missouri, was a Democrat. The usage of the word "government" to refer to the ruling party makes complete sense, because members of that party had done the biggest evils against the Mormons.

                                                                                                                                {"commentId":1429042,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"tjthompson"}
                                                                                                                                  #22.55 - Sat Feb 2, 2008 2:16 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1429390,"authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                                  Belarius

                                                                                                                                  If you spend equal time researching the exact wording of his prophecies, you would see that they haven't failed at all.

                                                                                                                                  Here's the thing about prophecy: it's not about the wording, it's about the interpretation. Only in cases where there's no ambiguity ("people live on the moon!") do you reflexively deny Smith ever made the prophecy in the first place. Everywhere else, you can twist any prophecy to match an event. It's not just you: every prophecy-oriented religion or cult does this, and has always done this. It's called "confirmation bias." What's remarkable is your conviction that this time you've stumbled upon the word of God.

                                                                                                                                  The critics have used this as ammunition against the credibility of the Prophet Joseph Smith, but they have not paid attention to the doctrine.

                                                                                                                                  There isn't a single bit of general wisdom in the words of Joseph Smith that can't be heard from a dozen other religious sects. This isn't to say that Smith is categorically wrong - it's saying that religions tend to provide similar answers to similar questions.

                                                                                                                                  If Smith was divinely inspired, then all of his prophecies need to come true. If any of them fail to, it's a sign that he wasn't, in fact, guided by unerring omniscience. Consequently, the places he happened to uncannily correct aren't proof of divinity. His failures, on the other hand, are evidence of his strict terrestriality.

                                                                                                                                  Lilburn W. Boggs, who issued the Extermination Order against the Mormons in the state of Missouri, was a Democrat.

                                                                                                                                  You are aware that the parties have changed over time, and that the Democrats were the "conservatives" of the 1840s, right? They were pro-slavery, anti-federal-government, anti-immigration, and pro-free-trade. It wasn't until the party began to adopt progressive policies in the early 20th century (between 1904 and 1912) that it began to resemble the party we all know and love/hate/ignore today.

                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1429390,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"belarius"}
                                                                                                                                  • 8 votes
                                                                                                                                  #22.56 - Sat Feb 2, 2008 4:00 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1429418,"authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                                                                  Wheel

                                                                                                                                  "A prophesy is a guess that comes true."

                                                                                                                                  Vir Cotto

                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1429418,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"Wheel"}
                                                                                                                                  • 7 votes
                                                                                                                                  #22.57 - Sat Feb 2, 2008 4:13 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1410874,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                                                  vas

                                                                                                                                  Superb written article and wonderful reasoning, my friend!

                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1410874,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                                                                                  Reply#23 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:06 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1411142,"authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                                                  vas

                                                                                                                                  Is evolution a fact or a theory?

                                                                                                                                  Evolution is a Fact and a Theory.

                                                                                                                                  {"commentId":1411142,"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886","authorDomain":"vas"}
                                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                                  Reply#24 - Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:27 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  {"canLink":false,"threadId":"207426","isPrivate":false}
                                                                                                                                  Leave a Comment:
                                                                                                                                  You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
                                                                                                                                  You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
                                                                                                                                  (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
                                                                                                                                  Newsvine Privacy Statement
                                                                                                                                  As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
                                                                                                                                  {"threadId":"207426","contentId":"1248886"}
                                                                                                                                  Start TrackingStart Tracking
                                                                                                                                  Stop TrackingStop Tracking
                                                                                                                                  Back To Top | Front Page
                                                                                                                                  FUN STUFF:
                                                                                                                                  • Leaderboard |
                                                                                                                                  • E-Mail Alerts |
                                                                                                                                  • Top of the Vine |
                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine Live |
                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine Archives |
                                                                                                                                  • The Greenhouse |
                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine Tools
                                                                                                                                  COMPANY STUFF:
                                                                                                                                  • Code of Honor |
                                                                                                                                  • Company Info |
                                                                                                                                  • Contact Us |
                                                                                                                                  • Jobs |
                                                                                                                                  • User Agreement |
                                                                                                                                  • Privacy Policy
                                                                                                                                  LEGAL STUFF:
                                                                                                                                  • © 2005-2010 Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
                                                                                                                                  • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com